Diving health

[wolf eel]

[bwerb
Perhaps you can explain to me what your limitations are...you have to have some on how far you would go within your training to rescue a buddy of circumstance.]

Before this is dead in the water.
My limitations are very stretched.
What the rescuer did was well with in them would you have gone for the ride in the chamber? Just asking.

I think I would try if there was a chance I would get out of it. If it was hopeless I could also just walk away. And say a prayer that night for the person. Its just the way I am I would be willing to push the envalope to save another. Hoping in return if it happens to me that somebody would put aside there fears and try.
I was hoping to get others to say how they felt. I hope it is not because most feel they would fail a heart stress test. That would be scary.
Cheers
Derek

 

[bwerb]

What...the Brockville death?

I'm not going to comment on it at all. None of us knows what happened.

Also...it wasn't a "Rescue Diver" it was an Instructor and this was a student taking a class from them.

Much different circumstance and degree of responsibility in this relationship.

Besides...didn't your rescue class teach you how to ascend with a non-breathing diver at a safe ascent rate?

My greater responsibility is for my safe return to my family. All my decisions must keep this as my rock bottom assesment of the situation. If I can help without crippling or killing myself, I will.

 

[wolf eel]

[bwerb What...the Brockville death?]

I may not have made that clear as that was what started me mind thinking about this.

[a "Rescue Diver" it was an Instructor and this was a student taking a class from them.]

Thats why I tried in vain to avoid the rescue diver Thread

[Much different circumstance and degree of responsibility in this relationship.]

This is also true to a point how does ones life become less because you did not pay somebody money ?

[Besides...didn't your rescue class teach you how to ascend with a non-breathing diver at a safe ascent rate?]

From what I understand a non breathing diver can not get bent. And requires to be out of the water fast. Thats why I agree with what that person did.

[My greater responsibility is for my safe return to my family. All my decisions must keep this as my rock bottom assesment of the situation. If I can help without crippling or killing myself, I will.]

Thats the point the other diver may also have kids and a Wife.

Cheers
Derek

 

[CathyS]

.
Thats the point the other diver may also have kids and a Wife.

Yes, that's true. I don't think anyone in this whole thread said they wouldn't try to help a diver in need if it were within their abilities to do so. It's just that not everyone is willing to give up their own life or health to save another.

If "the other diver may also have kids and a wife" then maybe the other diver should take responsibility for his own health and think about his familial obligations before he dives. You keep saying over and over that so many people dive when they are unhealthy. I'm sure this is true, but those people make that decision for themselves. As others pointed out, there's no way any diver can get certified without knowing the importance of being healthy in order to dive safely. If someone chooses to ignore that knowledge, why should the government step in and mandate a health exam? I don't believe in the government trying to save people from themselves in these situations. Living with freedom means having the freedom to make really bad and stupid decisions...and then accepting the consequences.

What happens if the government mandates a health exam and someone passes, but then develops a problem after the fact and has a heart attack while diving. What then? Do they sue the doctor who gave them the clean bill of health?

 

[bwerb]

My responsibility is to MY family...if they die while diving because they have a pre-existing cardiac issue...their families loss is not in the realm of things I'm responsible for...it is their responsibility to ensure their families will see them again. If they get in the water with a pre-existing medical condition...they are not being responsible.

As far as an instructor vs. a "buddy of circumstance" it's easy. As an instructor I'm insured and trained specifically to deal with this type of issue. It's my job. I am responsible to look after my students to the best of my ability...hence the massive investigations by the agency of instructors who are involved in student deaths. They are acting as the "expert" and are covered by liability insurance in case the family decides to sue for negligence etc.

If I get in the water with a "buddy of circumstance", our relationship is not one of student and instructor. In terms of the law we are in a much different place.

Back to Rescue class 101 for a sec. A non-breathing diver does need to be brought to the surface as quick as IS SAFELY POSSIBLE. And YES an non-breathing diver can be seriously bent. Bubble formation is a function of dissolved gasses in the bloodstream, they will come out of solution on ascent if you are breathing or not. The polaris ascent has taken the accident immediately from one problem to two...which is the VERY FIRST THING YOU are taught in any rescue course (diving or not)...do not create a second victim...who will now need someone else to rescue them.

You seem to be curious about all this stuff...are you a DAN member? You might find their reports and dive accident analysis to be really enlightening. You will discover that approximately 30% of dive accidents can be traced directly to cardiac events. In almost all circumstances this leads to drowning as the cause of death. In further studies it is clear that this was NOT the first cardiac event for the individual. Basically, having cardiac issues is a complete contraindication to diving.

Back to my first point in this reply. If you have a cardiac history...you have no business being in the water. You are being irresponsible with your own life, the life of your buddy and irresponsible to your family and friends.

Just so you are clear...if I'm in the water diving with you and you do the funky chicken. I will do everything and anything possible to ensure you are brought to the surface as quick as is safely possible...but I'm not going to kill myself in the process. Frankly, I would expect my buddies to take the same attitude. If I do myself in...the last thing I want is for you to create a second victim.

 

[wolf eel]

[CathyS
If "the other diver may also have kids and a wife" then maybe the other diver should take responsibility for his own health and think about his familial obligations before he dives. You keep saying over and over that so many people dive when they are unhealthy. I'm sure this is true, but those people make that decision for themselves. As others pointed out, there's no way any diver can get certified without knowing the importance of being healthy in order to dive safely.]

I would really beg to differ many companies could care less about the medical. After you have been around some dive shops you will find loads of them think it is a waste.

[why should the government step in and mandate a health exam?]

For the same reason they are about to jump into the parachute group because people are dying.

[What happens if the government mandates a health exam and someone passes, but then develops a problem after the fact and has a heart attack while diving. What then? Do they sue the doctor who gave them the clean bill of health?]

It was never about sueing the doctor or the rescuer but about the FACT that people are dying and is it because of the "it's all good attitude"? Why do you see so many overweight and out of shape divers ? I think because people are taught ounce you are under water you have your BCD to lift your weight and so on. Thats why. And because in your class you where taught about health and the fact that anybody can dive who can answer the questions right.
I fear the government putting there hands into the pie thats why I am asking about health and diving as Heart Attacks seem to come to about the same size and health and that would be an example to them that we are not doing all we can.

Derek

 

[wolf eel]

[bwerb
My responsibility is to MY family...if they die while diving because they have a pre-existing cardiac issue...]

Do they know ? As many people never go to a doctor for years.

[As far as an instructor vs. a "buddy of circumstance" it's easy. As an instructor I'm insured and trained specifically to deal with this type of issue. It's my job. I am responsible to look after my students to the best of my ability...hence the massive investigations by the agency of instructors who are involved in student deaths. They are acting as the "expert" and are covered by liability insurance in case the family decides to sue for negligence etc.]

I was never asking about the LAW or about rescue divers just about what should we do..

[Back to Rescue class 101 for a sec. A non-breathing diver does need to be brought to the surface as quick as IS SAFELY POSSIBLE. And YES an non-breathing diver can be seriously bent.]

Your right I am sorry for that you can not get a air embolism.

[The polaris ascent has taken the accident immediately from one problem to two...which is the VERY FIRST THING YOU are taught in any rescue course (diving or not)...do not create a second victim...who will now need someone else to rescue them.]

You may have to to save someone.

[You seem to be curious about all this stuff...are you a DAN member? You might find their reports and dive accident analysis to be really enlightening. You will discover that approximately 30% of dive accidents can be traced directly to cardiac events. In almost all circumstances this leads to drowning as the cause of death. In further studies it is clear that this was NOT the first cardiac event for the individual. Basically, having cardiac issues is a complete contraindication to diving.]

I have nothing to do with any agency at all. But without a check up you would never know.

[Just so you are clear...if I'm in the water diving with you and you do the funky chicken. I will do everything and anything possible to ensure you are brought to the surface as quick as is safely possible...but I'm not going to kill myself in the process. Frankly, I would expect my buddies to take the same attitude. If I do myself in...the last thing I want is for you to create a second victim.]

I have no concerns about issues underwater as I just had a complete work over by my doctor. BTW I had a headache after a deep dive for three weeks about a month ago. I also had people up here to dive. I was asked to stay out of deep water until I had a Cat scan I did that I stayed to around 80' at most and average 60' It was very hard for me to do as I really wanted the exsposure and had to sit back and wait. I have now had a complete all clear but I feel most would have ignored what was asked and kept diving. People fear the truth and avoid it. I on the other hand ask for complete truth with that I will not be pulled from the bottom in a rescue. But I meet so many that are on the verge.
Thats why I like the DIR thought process it fits with me nicely. But the thread was what can we do to protect ourselves from laws.
Derek