Diving health

[wolf eel]

[For example, we have no right to not wear a seat belt without fear from prosecution, most of us have no right to not wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle without the fear of prosecution, here in NY we have no right to talk on a cellular phone without a headset while driving without fear of prosecution, we have no right to own firearms without being on a list any government agent can look at (read the gun control laws of Germany in the 1930's, they are eerily similar to the current US laws), children under 16 have no right to ride a bicycle without a helmet, we have no right to plan our own retirement without contributing to everyone else's (social security) I can continue for a long time if anyone wishes, but I think you get my point.]

Hey if you are not going to cost me money because you chose to climb without a helmet thats your fault when you become wheel chair bound do not ask me for MY money just to help you. All of the LAWS as You say are really just to stop the dumb *** from crashing into you or killing you with a weapon. The eye for an eye is one thing that I would survive in would you for real ? I love these topics because most people talk the walk but when it comes time to walk it they can't be found or there over their complaining to the police.

[Given the opportunity, government tends to take away personal freedoms whenever they can, it is all about "gaining power and keeping power".]

I'm not so sure I beleive any of this anymore. Because I agree with keeping weapons out of the hands of nut case's and not allowing drunks to drive and those oh so annoying phone people who kill while talking to a freind in the hospital because they where run over by a person talking on the phone.

[And Wolfeel, one final thought, I want to understand why in two seperate threads when evidence of "not being legally bound to perform firstaid/rescue" has been presented, you ignore the information and/or start another thread and suggest again that you would be held legally responsible?]

Because it is law ask a lawyer who only deals in that style or area of law. The thread was not about law and rescue divers ability it was only about out of shape divers that could hurt others by their actions or lack of.
Derek

 

[bwerb]

Derek, the rescue course isn't a joke...it just isn't a professional S&R "save the world" course.

It is a course everyone should take...but don't think that because you have taken a two day recreational course that suddenly you are in a position to undertake significantly difficult rescues. You have a new skillset. You have honed your observational skills in such a manner that you will likely be able to break the chain of events before they get extremely serious...if you pay attention.

You will also likely have a new skillset for bringing a panicked diver or injured diver at the surface to shore while giving them the absolute best chance for survival UNTIL THE PROFESSIONALS ARRIVE.


In today's world...unfortunately...common sense has given way to "legislating against stupidity."

Laws aren't the answer. Medical clearance isn't the answer. Government involvement isn't the answer. A return to education, common sense, community responsibility and personal responsibility is the answer.

The old adage is "Don't dive with Strokes"...this isn't just for DIR...don't get in the water with someone you are uncertain about...period...this IS your responsibility.

 

[wolf eel]

[bwerb
Derek, the rescue course isn't a joke...it just isn't a professional S&R "save the world" course.]

I know I was never talking about the rescue course just defending myself because most are not trained to pick there nose right.

[It is a course everyone should take]

Why it's eye for an eye or healthy diver verces the unhealthy diver.

[You have honed your observational skills in such a manner that you will likely be able to break the chain of events before they get extremely serious...if you pay attention.]

This is the point you can not tell about the heart and how it is going to act under pressure. I know you will come back with dive with only people you know and so on.

[You will also likely have a new skillset for bringing a panicked diver or injured diver at the surface to shore while giving them the absolute best chance for survival UNTIL THE PROFESSIONALS ARRIVE.]

Do you now care about the other diver and getting them off the bottom ?

[In today's world...unfortunately...common sense has given way to "legislating against stupidity."]

Not really you all would walk on by and let them do the funky chicken. I on the other hand will do what ever I KNOW to help that person.

[Laws aren't the answer. Medical clearance isn't the answer. Government involvement isn't the answer. A return to education, common sense, community responsibility and personal responsibility is the answer.]

The problem being that nobody is taking any responsibility. Thats what started this thread.

Derek

 

[bwerb]

No...you're misreading what is being said and yeah...we're jumping all around in topics...heres a few comments.

I am not getting a diver off the bottom at Whytecliffe Park...it's 750 feet deep to the bottom of the wall. If you are like one of the girls who died there a couple years back, I would not have been able to save you (she was highly, highly overweighted and had a significant loss of bouyancy...she dropped into oblivion with her buddy chasing her to well below 200 feet...) If you are suddenly on the bottom at 100 feet, it's within my skillset to get you off the bottom, I'm not in a position to put myself in serious danger of not coming back to save someone who drops like a stone by me to 200 feet however...it's time to call the professionals.

Again, I'm all for offering help and assistance WITHIN THE SCOPE OF MY TRAINING. Not a single person here is advocating "walking by someone doing the funky chicken"...we are advocating that if you do something totally stupid and get yourself into a situation which saving you will require me to put myself in grevious danger and will create a two victim situation...then I'm likely not going to be ABLE to help you without serious harm to myself...which is against MY RESPONSIBILITY AS A HUSBAND AND PARENT.

The only person in your example who ISN'T taking responsibility is the bonehead in your initial example who uses deceipt (self deception included) to put both themselves and the lives of their "buddy" at risk.

 

[wolf eel]

[bwerb No...you're misreading what is being said and yeah...we're jumping all around in topics...heres a few comments.]

The point of the thread was about unhealthy divers dieing because we have no requierment for divers to get checked.

[I am not getting a diver off the bottom at Whytecliffe Park...it's 750 feet deep to the bottom of the wall. If you are like one of the girls who died there a couple years back, I would not have been able to save you (she was highly, highly overweighted and had a significant loss of bouyancy...she dropped into oblivion with her buddy chasing her to well below 200 feet...) If you are suddenly on the bottom at 100 feet, it's within my skillset to get you off the bottom, I'm not in a position to put myself in serious danger of not coming back to save someone who drops like a stone by me to 200 feet however...it's time to call the professionals.]

Nobody is asking you too. The point was about heart attacks and our diving population.
Why is it at 200' why not at 50' what then ?

[Again, I'm all for offering help and assistance WITHIN THE SCOPE OF MY TRAINING. Not a single person here is advocating "walking by someone doing the funky chicken"...we are advocating that if you do something totally stupid and get yourself into a situation which saving you will require me to put myself in grevious danger and will create a two victim situation...then I'm likely not going to be ABLE to help you without serious harm to myself...which is against MY RESPONSIBILITY AS A HUSBAND AND PARENT.]

Again CPR is with in your scope is it not as a rescue diver ? And does the impaired diver not put you at risk in doing CPR ? Blood and vomit and so on.

[The only person in your example who ISN'T taking responsibility is the bonehead in your initial example who uses deceipt (self deception included) to put both themselves and the lives of their "buddy" at risk.]

Is that not what is happening with these heart attacks ? Every one of them. To think the first time they ever felt anything was the day they die ? I doubt it.
Derek

 

[bwerb]

Derek...sorry bud...you're losing me a bit here...I don't know about you but I had to fill out a medical questionaire prior to certification. I also had to fill out a 6 page medical questionaire prior to my first GUE course. My OW, AOW and Rescue course all covered the importance of health in diving...check the disclaimers in the books. Every dive magazine I've ever read, every piece of gear I've ever bought warned me about training and health. My GUE training has reinforced it to an even higher level...namely if you read the terms of their certifications they actually require you continue to participate in an ongoing healthy lifestyle or they can yank your card.

There is NO excuse for ANY diver to not know that poor health is a total contraindication to diving.

I've called dives when I felt horrible. I've had buddies call dives before they got in the water because they felt off. I ask for honesty and integrity in my dive partners. I tend to dive largely with divers who think the same way.

I already answered your query about 50' when I said I'd have no problem down to around 100'...below that in recreational terms and I'm putting myself at too great a risk to continue following you down deeper (narcosis, O2 tox, limited gas supply, increased risk for DCS on the rapid rise to the surface etc.)

Perhaps you can explain to me what your limitations are...you have to have some on how far you would go within your training to rescue a buddy of circumstance.

I don't know why you are so hung-up on heart attacks...if you are reading the DAN reports and notice they come-up quite a bit...it is also imparative to notice that most of the people suffering from the heart attacks are also once a year vacation divers who are likely out of shape, hung-over and diving beyond their abilities. Living and diving where we do takes a slightly different mindset. Not a huge community of once a year divers show up to dive in the PNW.

My CPR course introduced the use of barriers to avoid direct contact with body fluids...which if you'll check the statistics is also a total non-issue in dive rescue...not one confirmed case of HIV transmission from performing CPR.

Again...know who you are diving with.

 

[bwerb]

Here's a great buddy test for you...dive with buddies who do shore diving with double steel E8-130's...take them to Ansell Point. If they make it down the stairs and the rope swing without suffering a cardiac event...they'll likely be fine in the water...

 

[wolf eel]

[bwerb
Derek...sorry bud...you're losing me a bit here...I don't know about you but I had to fill out a medical questionaire prior to certification.]

I know but after that is what I am talking about. All the thread was about was should we as diver implament a medical examine after say 50 and have the heart looked at ?

[namely if you read the terms of their certifications they actually require you continue to participate in an ongoing healthy lifestyle or they can yank your card.]

Is that just GUE ? If not has it ever happened before.

[There is NO excuse for ANY diver to not know that poor health is a total contraindication to diving.]

Why are there so many dieing then ?

[I've called dives when I felt horrible. I've had buddies call dives before they got in the water because they felt off. I ask for honesty and integrity in my dive partners. I tend to dive largely with divers who think the same way.]

That is my main reason for DIR

[Perhaps you can explain to me what your limitations are...you have to have some on how far you would go within your training to rescue a buddy of circumstance.]

A lot farther then most and less then others

[I don't know why you are so hung-up on heart attacks...if you are reading the DAN reports and notice they come-up quite a bit...it is also imparative to notice that most of the people suffering from the heart attacks]

It seems to happen alot. Thats how this thread started.

[My CPR course introduced the use of barriers to avoid direct contact with body fluids...which if you'll check the statistics is also a total non-issue in dive rescue...not one confirmed case of HIV transmission from performing CPR.]

Your right I knew the barrier thing was going to come up you have yours in your BCD at all times. Also who cares about hiv I'm more worried about Hep "C".

[Again...know who you are diving with.]

Do you think you know all about your buddies lives I doubt that for sure !!!!

The thread was about people who are dieing because we seem to have a it's all good attitude towards diving. The fact is a guy had to hit the chamber because of a heart attack victim. Are you willing to do as this guy did ?
Derek

 

[bwerb]

e.
Why are there so many dieing then ?

It seems to happen alot.

Do you think you know all about your buddies lives I doubt that for sure !!!!

There aren't that many dying!!!
As I said before, the majority who make the DAN statistics are infrequent divers.
The media loves to promote it but realize, you are on a diving forum...we tend to magnify what's happening because we hear about the majority of diving deaths on here.

Also...my wife is my primary dive buddy...I know all about her life...

 

[wolf eel]

[bwerb
There aren't that many dying!!!
As I said before, the majority who make the DAN statistics are infrequent divers.
The media loves to promote it but realize, you are on a diving forum...we tend to magnify what's happening because we hear about the majority of diving deaths on here.

Also...my wife is my primary dive buddy...I know all about her life.]

I agree with most of what you are saying. It's just I think there is more dying then in other sports. IE Climbing. And the deaths allways seem to be of the same age and nature that leads me anyhow to think there may be a problem.

The diving forum has not talked about it too much. It's just we hear about everything. All the deaths and accidents. Again they seem very close.

Yes your wife would be one of those partners you may know all about. I was going to joke about that but my better sense grabbed me.
Most do not know their diving partners all that well.

Cheers
Derek