Diving, Fitness, Obesity and Personal Rights

[Neilwood]

Well, if you're in a line of work that requires you to sometimes manage heavy objects ... whether they be people or inanimate objects ... then there are techniques and mechanical aids that should be made available to you to do so without hurting yourself. I've already described a couple of these techniques that you should have learned on your way to becoming a DM, and there are others that your employer should make available to you if it's their decision to provide services for this type of clientele. That's a business decision. Your "right" is to decide whether or not to be in this line of work, or to work for this particular employer. If you decide to accept the position, then it's your responsibility to provide the services that are paid for by the client your employer agreed to provide services for. You don't have the "right" to discriminate against certain types of clientele simply because you believe they should not be there. Nor do you have the "right" to insist on government intervention preventing those people from being provided those services. That's called discrimination, regardless of how you look at it.

Furthermore ... if you're the sort who thinks about your clients in terms of being an a**h**te simply because you don't like the way they look, then you're in the wrong line of work. Perhaps you'd be happier in the fashion industry.

What makes you better or somehow more deserving of this "right" you mention than an EMT or nurse who has to deal with heavy people on a daily basis? I can assure you those people put more time, effort and expense into getting into their line of work than you did as a divemaster ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

The employer in this instance should be under an obligation to protect his/her staff by providing lifts/methodology for performing the tasks.

With the EMT/ nurses, they should generally have access to lifts/PAT slides and training on lift techniques (definitely the case here).

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

The employer in this instance should be under an obligation to protect his/her staff by providing lifts/methodology for performing the tasks.
With the EMT/ nurses, they should generally have access to lifts/PAT slides and training on lift techniques (definitely the case here).

Ok lets play this game. If you have read through this thread - human lifts are very difficult to get Coast Guard approved. My guess is they would also up your insurance premiums exponentially.

Other than a hypothetical scenario - have you seen a DM or crew that could not get a person eventually back on board? I have not and we have been provided with a way to do it that is even taught in the Agencies. So if I extrapolate and say this is very rare for this type of necessity and I am an owner of a dive boat - should I saddle myself with extra expenses to cover this rare event or should I perhaps hire a DM and crew that can perform the functions of the job?

Me if I own a dive boat - I know which option I would pick. Listening to the dive boat captains your margin is already razor thin - do you really want to go out of business to save one employee that is fictitious to a rare event?

 

[dmaziuk]

Well, if you're in a line of work that requires you to sometimes manage heavy objects ... whether they be people or inanimate objects ... then there are techniques and mechanical aids that should be made available to you to do so without hurting yourself.

Ok lets play this game. If you have read through this thread - human lifts are very difficult to get Coast Guard approved. My guess is they would also up your insurance premiums exponentially.

Other than a hypothetical scenario - have you seen a DM or crew that could not get a person eventually back on board? I have not and we have been provided with a way to do it that is even taught in the Agencies. So if I extrapolate and say this is very rare for this type of necessity and I am an owner of a dive boat - should I saddle myself with extra expenses to cover this rare event or should I perhaps hire a DM and crew that can perform the functions of the job?

Me if I own a dive boat - I know which option I would pick. Listening to the dive boat captains your margin is already razor thin - do you really want to go out of business to save one employee that is fictitious to a rare event?

I think this makes it pretty clear that they'll tell you how to "lift with your legs" at some point during your rescue course, and you will not have any mechanical aids available when you need them. Unless the big bad government makes boat owner get them.

The flip side is that in the precedent-based legal system, the decision what would have been "reasonable" rests with whichever side can afford a better lawyer and with 12 people too dumb to get off jury duty. So the question is would rather have that or an imperfect and stupid arbitrary standard that you can read and do your due a**-covering diligence ahead of time.

 

[Neilwood]

Ok lets play this game. If you have read through this thread - human lifts are very difficult to get Coast Guard approved. My guess is they would also up your insurance premiums exponentially.

Other than a hypothetical scenario - have you seen a DM or crew that could not get a person eventually back on board? I have not and we have been provided with a way to do it that is even taught in the Agencies. So if I extrapolate and say this is very rare for this type of necessity and I am an owner of a dive boat - should I saddle myself with extra expenses to cover this rare event or should I perhaps hire a DM and crew that can perform the functions of the job?

Me if I own a dive boat - I know which option I would pick. Listening to the dive boat captains your margin is already razor thin - do you really want to go out of business to save one employee that is fictitious to a rare event?

You seem to have jumped on one thread where make a specific answer to a specific point re EMT/nurses.

Did I say that the boat would have to have a lift? If you read it properly I say that either a lift or a methodology for getting someone on board. I was replying to someone using nurses/EMT as an example and stating that they will have assessed this and decided on a way to work which will minimise the manual handling aspects (and therefore the risks). Medical care is a sector where lifting is a constant occurrence so lifts etc would be perceived a reasonable step as the risk of injury is high due to the frequency and weights involved.

If you read my previous post I actually agree with NWGratefuldiver in that using the "parbuckling" technique would be an acceptable method for getting someone out of the water. Never did I suggest that all boats must have lifts.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

With the "heavier"/larger" divers, it could be something as simple as the parbuckling technique above or a winch but the people involved should be aware of it and how to perform it.

Ok - we agree - I took it as you were implying that if parbuckling could not be used then a winch or lift would be required in the case of a crew that was not strong enough... as some others were implying...

 

[TMHeimer]

Holy Crap, I'm sorry I proposed the very improbable scenario of all dive boat patrons in trouble at once. My fault for starting a whole new angle on this. Just use your brain as a diver taking a boat charter (or shore diving), and don't sue anybody if they don't have a giant lift bag to get your A$$ aboard....Again, I apologize, but hey, I'm retired and it's SB or TV.

 

[WarrenZ]

Our plan for re-boarding an unconscious diver is usually a group heave-ho and drag them up on the swimstep and on board where we can work on them.

 

[KenGordon]

Why don't you lot do something about having lifts?

Do the coastguard really get to say no? Surely a safety case can be made to counter that? Given the 'attitude' of most of the posters on here with regard to 'freedoms' surely the freedom to fit a lift is worth something?

Can someone post a regulation which stops them?

Or are all the skippers just too cheap?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Our plan for re-boarding an unconscious diver is usually a group heave-ho and drag them up on the swimstep and on board where we can work on them.

I've been on boats and in conditions where that would be next to impossible. In fact, I've been on boats and in conditions (swells) where even getting a skinny person out of the water would be next to impossible without a lift or parbuckling.

 

[drrich2]

Having a lift could raise liability risk substantially. The presence of the lift implies having a functional lift, capably implemented, is appropriate and passengers onboard have a reasonable expectation that this service exists on the boat, if needed.

If it's needed at some point, and either doesn't work (e.g.: glitch, lack of adequate maintenance, salt water corrosion) or crew didn't use it right (e.g.: rarely used), and a passenger has a bad outcome that an attorney convincingly argues might've been avoided if the lift had worked & been deployed properly, this could be worse for the dive op. than having none at all.

If you're not careful, having too extensive a set of boat policies & equipment lineup could raise the duty of care level you'd be held to.

Richard.