Diving, Fitness, Obesity and Personal Rights

[MXGratefulDiver]

It is not your job to save someone from their own stupidity.

... unless you are working in the capacity of a diving professional, either as dive guide or instructor, and being paid to dive with that person, it's not your job to save them at all. Any assistance you provide is strictly at your discretion. So let's dispense with the myth that it's somehow your "job" to save another diver from the consequences of their choices. You have no duty of care up to the point that you volunteer to render assistance to another diver. At that point your duty extends to the limits of your training and ability.

So the answer is really rather simple. If you don't want to put yourself in a situation where you have to help drag another diver out of the water ... regardless of their size ... then don't volunteer to provide that assistance. Maybe rather than making some attempt to dictate what others should do, it really boils down to a simple maxim ... mind your own business, and let others do the same.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Buliwyf]

That BMI chart is waaaaay of. If I was perfectly down to fighting weight I'd still be in "overweight", with the little bit of extra weight I have on me, I'm in the "obese" category.

The last physical I had, the nurse was "wth, where are you hiding 248 pounds?". The absolute lowest I'll ever see at 6'3", is 215 pounds. But we're talking about a loss in muscle and fat for that, not just fat. 220-225 is more normal.

According to that chart, a BMI of 23 would make me anorexic. I'd have to be skin and bone to get down to that. A BMI of 20 would be fatal for me. People can be built very differently. I wouldn't recommend telling Aanastasia that he's obese.

That being said. Coast Guard divers bust their butts, just to get the opportunity to save someones life. I'm not going to pass up that chance if it comes to that.

 

[OrangeCountyScuba]

... unless you are working in the capacity of a diving professional, either as dive guide or instructor, and being paid to dive with that person, it's not your job to save them at all. Any assistance you provide is strictly at your discretion. So let's dispense with the myth that it's somehow your "job" to save another diver from the consequences of their choices. You have no duty of care up to the point that you volunteer to render assistance to another diver. At that point your duty extends to the limits of your training and ability.

So the answer is really rather simple. If you don't want to put yourself in a situation where you have to help drag another diver out of the water ... regardless of their size ... then don't volunteer to provide that assistance. Maybe rather than making some attempt to dictate what others should do, it really boils down to a simple maxim ... mind your own business, and let others do the same.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I agree with you Bob, to an extent. I think the professional perspective is where most are getting hung up on. It was said previously by myself and others, that a professional should have the right to exclude those who do not seem fit to dive. Now while I use the term "fit" I am not just speaking to a persons size, if someone comes out to go diving with me and they dont know how to set up their gear, do checks, or have a major lack of confidence in what they are doing, then they may not be able to dive. While I understand the topic at hand is mainly talking about persons who are overweight/obese, that still may fall under being "fit" to dive category. I understand that you cannot just assume that a person is overweight/obese is not fit to dive, but you can make certain assumptions that they are more "likely" to have issues, not a personal view point remember most diving deaths are due to heart attack. If a dive operator and/or instructor does not have the ability to recover a body due to the size and weight of that diver, it would be prudent for the dive operator to cover their own a** by not allowing that person to dive. That is called being an accountable dive operation, knowing your limits as a business as well.

Ok, now if you are an overweight/obese diver and go out on a private boat or shore dive, as long as those who are with you are not professionals then it is ok. If your buddy wants to take the responsibility of diving with you, I respect that and go for it. This discussion of not allowing "large" divers to participate should be limited to open party/commercial outfits. Whether or not you agree with that, you have to take a look at the current trend in the USA, in which is your damned if you do and damned if you dont. You cant discriminate without fear of repercussion and if something were to happen to you while you are diving and the outfit was not able to recover your body or rescue you efficiently there would also be repercussion. Waivers and liability forms do not actually hold up in court, it still falls as the responsibility of the operator and that is scary for any professional diver.

 

[gcarter]

If a dive operator and/or instructor does not have the ability to recover a body due to the size and weight of that diver, it would be prudent for the dive operator to cover their own a** by not allowing that person to dive. That is called being an accountable dive operation, knowing your limits as a business as well.

If by size and weight you only mean obese, it is a sure quick way to a well deserved and winnable discrimination suit. If by size and weight you are completely ignoring perceived fitness, maybe.

250lbs is 250lbs, whether it is attached to a fit linebacker or an obese midget. You can move it or you can't.

Unless the ability to recover is applied equally to all divers boarding the boat, it is in fact a very POOR "cover their own a**" strategy.

 

[OrangeCountyScuba]

If by size and weight you only mean obese, it is a sure quick way to a well deserved and winnable discrimination suit. If by size and weight you are completely ignoring perceived fitness, maybe.

250lbs is 250lbs, whether it is attached to a fit linebacker or an obese midget. You can move it or you can't.

Unless the ability to recover is applied equally to all divers boarding the boat, it is in fact a very POOR "cover their own a**" strategy.

That is actually a fair point. Weight is weight regardless of fat or muscle. I suppose that then you would have to make a max weight policy for your operation, which lets face is ridiculous. However, when you factor in that generally persons overweight are more likely of having a medical issue. So I then I pose the question, why are we as an industry allowing persons that are unfit to dive or take a class take part in the sport? I never want to see someone get hurt from diving and if that means that person is going to be upset with me bc I excluded them, I can live with that. Ok is there an actual way for us to limit a persons ability to partake under certain circumstances or is that just delusional at this point?

 

[DustyC]

Having read most of the replies, I can't help but laugh. I just entered my 18th year as a firefighter. I work a very busy house in the hood. I see a lot of the sudden death discussed here. Being a firefighter, I also deal with a lot of high stress situations. The kind that cause some people to fall over dead.

I'm also a lifter. My 3 lift combo is over 1400 lbs.

And at one time, I weighed 365lbs. I've lost a lot of weight. But I'm still over weight. Probably always will be according to the retarded chart.

So between all that, I can see every side of it. I guess my biggest insight is that I see sudden cardiac related death in sugar addicts primarily. Including skinny people.
As far as sudden death with diving, let's face it, it's rare. Very rare. As far wanting to mandate certain physical fitness standards goes, sure. Let's mandate a butt to heals 500 pound squat. Oh you can't do that, well then, you're not good enough.

The fact is, the mandated requirements are adequate. (Getting shops to do them is just as hard as the requirements themselves though). And I say that as someone that's absolutely not capable of floating. I actually had to kick to keep myself on the surface for all requirements. Deadlifting over 600lbs has downsides.



Now that I'm a DM, I see it like this, if I can't get an unconscious diver out of the water, it's my fault for not being able to do my job. Not theirs for being fat. When I signed up for rescue and dm, I don't recall anything in the job description that said all my customers would be skinny our in shape. Nope, skinny or fat, I have a job and I'll do it. And if I can't, I won't blame it on anyone else.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

So I then I pose the question, why are we as an industry allowing persons that are unfit to dive or take a class take part in the sport?

... because they're adults and therefore have the freedom to make their own personal lifestyle choices ...

If you choose, as a dive professional, to not offer your services to someone because you perceive them to be a threat to themselves, then that is your choice to make and I respect your right to make it. On the other hand, if you, as a dive professional with to make an attempt to define fitness to dive "as an industry", then you are taking upon yourself authority you should not have to regulate other people's choices.

There seems to be this illusion that we "as an industry" should have the right to tell people ... based on some social perception of their health ... what they can and cannot do. I don't think that's a good idea at all. It gets back to the whole personal responsibility thing ... people should have the right to make their own choices, and the responsibility to live or die with the consequences. I'd rather take the risk of personal injury or death and be able to exercise of my freedom to choose than live a life of safety by allowing someone else to decide what I'm "fit" to do.

FWIW - I'm way more likely to exclude a diver from my class or my company as a buddy due to their attitude than due to their body shape ... and even then I'm hesitant to be the arbiter of whether they should dive, but rather whether or not they will dive with me ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Having read most of the replies, I can't help but laugh. I just entered my 18th year as a firefighter. I work a very busy house in the hood. I see a lot of the sudden death discussed here. Being a firefighter, I also deal with a lot of high stress situations. The kind that cause some people to fall over dead.

I'm also a lifter. My 3 lift combo is over 1400 lbs.

And at one time, I weighed 365lbs. I've lost a lot of weight. But I'm still over weight. Probably always will be according to the retarded chart.

So between all that, I can see every side of it. I guess my biggest insight is that I see sudden cardiac related death in sugar addicts primarily. Including skinny people.
As far as sudden death with diving, let's face it, it's rare. Very rare. As far wanting to mandate certain physical fitness standards goes, sure. Let's mandate a butt to heals 500 pound squat. Oh you can't do that, well then, you're not good enough.

The fact is, the mandated requirements are adequate. (Getting shops to do them is just as hard as the requirements themselves though). And I say that as someone that's absolutely not capable of floating. I actually had to kick to keep myself on the surface for all requirements. Deadlifting over 600lbs has downsides.

Now that I'm a DM, I see it like this, if I can't get an unconscious diver out of the water, it's my fault for not being able to do my job. Not theirs for being fat. When I signed up for rescue and dm, I don't recall anything in the job description that said all my customers would be skinny our in shape. Nope, skinny or fat, I have a job and I'll do it. And if I can't, I won't blame it on anyone else.

Years back I used to co-teach Rescue class with another NAUI instructor. She also was a firefighter. She wasn't a big gal ... 5'5" and maybe 135 lbs or so. She used to demonstrate how to get a big person out of the water by carrying one of our DM's out on her shoulders ... he was 6'2" and probably 100 lbs heavier than her. There is some technique to it, but I do think the argument does tend to get overstated in these conversations ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DustyC]

Years back I used to co-teach Rescue class with another NAUI instructor. She also was a firefighter. She wasn't a big gal ... 5'5" and maybe 135 lbs or so. She used to demonstrate how to get a big person out of the water by carrying one of our DM's out on her shoulders ... he was 6'2" and probably 100 lbs heavier than her. There is some technique to it, but I do think the argument does tend to get overstated in these conversations ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Technique is a lot of it. I have a girl on my crew that's 5'7, 150 lbs, and can drag a 300 lb guy when she needs to. It's her job. She's good at it. She had to learn technique over force.

 

[Bob DBF]

That is actually a fair point. Weight is weight regardless of fat or muscle. I suppose that then you would have to make a max weight policy for your operation, which lets face is ridiculous.

Not so ridiculous, if a boat can only pull a 200# person out of the water, how safe would it be for someone say 250# fall overboard.

However, when you factor in that generally persons overweight are more likely of having a medical issue. So I then I pose the question, why are we as an industry allowing persons that are unfit to dive or take a class take part in the sport? I never want to see someone get hurt from diving and if that means that person is going to be upset with me bc I excluded them, I can live with that. Ok is there an actual way for us to limit a persons ability to partake under certain circumstances or is that just delusional at this point?

At what point does the DM become an MD? You clearly want a DM or skipper on a boat to make a medical decision on who dives, without the training or insurance of a medical professional.

If you never want to see someone get hurt from diving, quit diving. Divers get hit by boats without being overweight, along with a number of other different accidents. Medical issues are only around 25% of the few SCUBA fatalities.

Ok is there an actual way for us to limit a persons ability to partake under certain circumstances or is that just delusional at this point?

Personally, I have no need to limit a persons ability to dive, and will rely on their judgement for that decision. In my experience, poor diving skills top the list of accidents I've seen.

What is delusional is you thinking that you and other dive professionals can look at someone on the boat and decide, by size and weight, if they are fit to dive. You might sort out this problem in the professional ranks before you start in on the rest of us.


Bob