Diving beyond cert?

[happy-diver]

Yes to our rights are attached the responsibility of appreciating how our actions may well affect others

Which were exactly my thoughts, as I was building this rebreather from scratch, in my parents laundry

From this plan

By this line of thinking, you can start reb diving just like that without training.

 

[Pedroo]

But the risk to others (much like scuba) is low so the responsibility rests with the person involved in the activity.

Allow me to disagree with you.

According to a 2015 report: 86% of fatalities occurred while alone ( diving solo or separated from a partner). So I can assume that in the case of separation with a partner it was due to poor training - however I realize that sometimes things have a very unfortunate course despite perfect training. But at the same time, according to DAN: 57% of people who started diving with a partner were separated at the time of death.

And while I don't know the meanderings of U.S. law and what is allowed and not allowed without a license, the evidence shows that you are wrong here as well. A quick search shows that there have been a lot of accidents involving small aircraft, where the victims were not only the pilot or passengers, but also people on the ground.

For example:

3 killed after small plane crashes into Florida mobile home park, FAA says

Multiple mobile homes caught fire after the single-engine plane, whose pilot had reported engine failure, crashed in Clearwater, officials said.

www.nbcnews.com

That's why I can't agree with you that diving without good training is solely a matter of who is doing it.

 

[boulderjohn]

According to a 2015 report: 86% of fatalities occurred while alone ( diving solo or separated from a partner). So I can assume that in the case of separation with a partner it was due to poor training - however I realize that sometimes things have a very unfortunate course despite perfect training.

I knew 4 people I considered to be friends who died while scuba diving. In all 4 cases the divers were alone when they died. In all 4 cases, the divers were very highly trained. Three were certified and experienced cave divers, and the fourth was an instructor who owned a thriving dive operation. In all 4 cases, the divers became separated from their buddies, and in all 4 cases, the circumstances were beyond their control.

The divers just seemed to disappear. One was in a zero visibility cave incident that has been thoroughly analyzed both in this site and elsewhere, but the others were in open water and were consistent with what I have seen in other reports. Divers who are supposedly with a team are just suddenly gone, with no good explanation. In one of the cases, a thorough examination of the gear found no problems, and an autopsy did not find a cause of death. In the other cases, the disappeared divers were never found.

Here is an anecdote that may explain this. I was diving with my daughter-in-law and her young son in calm and clear water on a reef in South Florida. Since they were newer divers, I was watching over them carefully. They were swimming side by side, with me in front leading. When it was time to end the dive, I faced them and signaled the ascent, and they both responded. My grandson and I started a slow ascent, but his mother paused briefly to look at her gauges. When she looked up from her gauges, we were about 6-7 feet above her, and we had both stopped when she had not started the ascent immediately. She began to look around frantically. Where had everyone gone? Where was her beloved son? He was within 10 feet of her, but she couldn't see him.

If someone is within a buddy team and has a medical event, that person may suddenly either rise or fall, and if no one is looking at him or her at that precise moment, there is a good chance no one will see it happen. No one will know where that person went. If that medical event leads to death, then the statistics will show that the diver died alone.

 

[grantmac]

Divers being separated from their buddy are not solo divers.

In the same way as the aircraft in your accident report isn't one that can be flown without a license.

 

[admikar]

Allow me to disagree with you.

According to a 2015 report: 86% of fatalities occurred while alone ( diving solo or separated from a partner). So I can assume that in the case of separation with a partner it was due to poor training - however I realize that sometimes things have a very unfortunate course despite perfect training. But at the same time, according to DAN: 57% of people who started diving with a partner were separated at the time of death.

And while I don't know the meanderings of U.S. law and what is allowed and not allowed without a license, the evidence shows that you are wrong here as well. A quick search shows that there have been a lot of accidents involving small aircraft, where the victims were not only the pilot or passengers, but also people on the ground.

For example:

3 killed after small plane crashes into Florida mobile home park, FAA says

Multiple mobile homes caught fire after the single-engine plane, whose pilot had reported engine failure, crashed in Clearwater, officials said.

www.nbcnews.com

That's why I can't agree with you that diving without good training is solely a matter of who is doing it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, you are 24 years old , somewhat freshly minted instructor?
If that is true, what I have gathered from other threads here that you responded to, you believe that instructor rating gives you some divine ability with all things diving?
To keep it short, you're wrong. I can elaborate on this if needed.

 

[Pedroo]

Divers being separated from their buddy are not solo divers.

In the same way as the aircraft in your accident report isn't one that can be flown without a license.

Read the quote from the report again - solo and left alone divers were included in this statistic, as it was about the condition at the time of the accident - that they were alone.

It was neither "my" accident nor "my" report.... But if a plane with a licensed pilot kills bystanders what should I think of an unlicensed pilot?

And in general, I do not understand your aggressive tone. You want to dive without a license then dive, what do I care?

 

[Pedroo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, you are 24 years old , somewhat freshly minted instructor?
If that is true, what I have gathered from other threads here that you responded to, you believe that instructor rating gives you some divine ability with all things diving?
To keep it short, you're wrong. I can elaborate on this if needed.

Oh that's very nice of you but no.... I unfortunately have more years on my back as well as in the diving industry. But I will gladly immerse myself in your factual and supported by evidence or reports discussion on this subject.

 

[admikar]

Oh that's very nice of you but no.... I unfortunately have more years on my back as well as in the diving industry. But I will gladly immerse myself in your factual and supported by evidence or reports discussion on this subject.

I am part of a dive club that has around 80 active members, operating under CMAS.
When I was new diver, I was taken to 30 meters on my 5th dive, by a diving instructor that examined my abilities during 4 previous dives as OW component of OW course. He found me capable of doing that dive. I did not know it at the time, but he deducted we both had more than enough gas reserves to get both of us safely to the surface in case we had any mishap, regardless of which diver had a mishap. Which later training showed me that he was correct.
Going for my R2 rating (AOW + some in PADI environment) I was closely examined and found capable of finishing it. Which involved drysuit, night, drift, deep, finding your exit point 500 meters away solely referencing compass (no visual references to the bottom). None of which we receive separate certs. That's just the way it works here.
After that course, I was diving with some highly experienced buddies, some of them being instructors themselves, going to 40 meters and even into some light deco (after "off the books" training in what is involved and how to do it). Result of it being I had a really easy time finishing my R3 cert+ AN/DP cert.
I and other experienced divers in our club will take someone beyond cert level if we found that diver to be capable of doing that dive. Yet, those less experienced divers ain't dying like flies doing those dives.
I am ready to bet that divers that we produce are more capable divers to do whatever cert is allowing them to do than those that are doing those same dives just because cert is allowing them to do it. Because they receive training to do those dives, not to pass certification.
You are supporting your position by reports of mishaps, but I would like you to show us reports of how many beyond certification dives are finished without any mishap. You can't, simply because those dives aren't reported, almost no one reports no mishap events.
That does not mean your position is the only one correct here just because you have a report to fall back to..

 

[grantmac]

Read the quote from the report again - solo and left alone divers were included in this statistic, as it was about the condition at the time of the accident - that they were alone.

It was neither "my" accident nor "my" report.... But if a plane with a licensed pilot kills bystanders what should I think of an unlicensed pilot?

And in general, I do not understand your aggressive tone. You want to dive without a license then dive, what do I care?

If you can't be bothered to educate yourself then I won't do it for you.

 

[8mb]

Nope. If the dive OP is cool about it, go for it.

I went to 80' with current in one spot, a week after cert.

Scuba police are going to get us.

How hard I laughed Scuba police. Knowing me, I’d be actually looking for them like a paranoid squirrel.