Diver missing on Oriskany 10/22/11

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Here we go again about how bad rebreathers are. When someone passes away on OC we don't talk about how the reg could have failed or a hose bursts or anything like that. But when a breather diver passes its always the unit that killed him/her. Being in the sport and learning about the highest technical piece of equipment out there you tend to look at diving in a different way. You will never pull the breather from me. I can prolly guess the computer the poster above me saw fail. Yes just like regs some CCRs are not the greatest. I feel better on a breather because I am in control. I put it together and I have faith in myself to do it right. If you call that complacency fine. But I know I will not let the unit kill me. I am in the minority so there will be plenty of posts bashing my views. That is why most CCR divers do not comment of stuff like this. Go ahead rip me apart just remember I will be sitting here enjoying every post.

To the missing diver. My condolences to the family and I hope they can get through this and still enjoy life as it should be.

Perhaps my point wasn't well made. I don't hate rebreathers at all, they aren't the tool for me, but that doesn't mean I don't like them. As a charter operator, I'd much rather see a bunch of rebreather tech divers that open circuit tech divers. They take way less gas to make a dive.

My point was that a potentially fatal rebreather failure may not always give you warning of it's impending failure. A missing or poorly applied o-ring in your unit may cause a scrubber bypass that you won't catch without a CO2 monitor. Your temp stick won't help you with that one, and it won't show up on your handset or HUD. You'll just fall asleep. Some rebreathers are designed so that just can't happen, but may have other drawbacks. I'm most familiar with the Evo+. Yes, you'd catch that missing o-ring on your pre-dive, but not everyone does a positive or negative check every time they pack the can. --BUT--

I've never seen or heard of a fatality on O/C because the regulator failed or a hose blew. It may have happened, but I've never heard of it. I have heard of rebreather divers falling asleep underwater and not surviving the event.

Oh, and the failed handset? You'd probably get it on your 3rd or 4th guess. The rebreather in question is a very well made high quality unit. Sometimes stuff just happens.
 
I agree with you on the tempstick thing. It is there and must be respected for what it is and what it isnt. Just falling asleep is not always the case with a CO2 hit either. I was not saying that you do not like them or the one bashing them. I know hearing about a reg or hose failing is very slim if it even happens. It was just making a point. People do not start to hate OC because someone died. But they do on CCR. It is unfortunate but will always happen.

Realizing who you are now I have heard good things about you and your boat from some people you know quite well. They are also on breathers.
 
Here we go again about how bad rebreathers are. When someone passes away on OC we don't talk about how the reg could have failed or a hose bursts or anything like that. But when a breather diver passes its always the unit that killed him/her. Being in the sport and learning about the highest technical piece of equipment out there you tend to look at diving in a different way. You will never pull the breather from me. I can prolly guess the computer the poster above me saw fail. Yes just like regs some CCRs are not the greatest. I feel better on a breather because I am in control. I put it together and I have faith in myself to do it right. If you call that complacency fine. But I know I will not let the unit kill me. I am in the minority so there will be plenty of posts bashing my views. That is why most CCR divers do not comment of stuff like this. Go ahead rip me apart just remember I will be sitting here enjoying every post.

To the missing diver. My condolences to the family and I hope they can get through this and still enjoy life as it should be.

Diving 4 years and rebreathers for 5-6 months. I am guessing early to mid twenties. In about 10 years think back on this....."you don't know what you don't know" There is a ton of experience on this board. Experience does not come from schooling, training, and reading about it. Experience comes from doing, over and over and over, in different environments and situations.

Over the past few years there have been 2 main categories of death in scuba diving. Medical issues and rebreathers. This incident, if it turns out to be fatal, will likely be one of the two. Rebreathers do not reach out and murder divers. They are machines. Compared to OC the numbers are much higher when it comes to fatalities. Bad sensors, failure to service properly, electronics failure, the list goes on. This stuff is happening and we need to know what and why. Discussions bring up information. Information leads to patterns. Patterns lead people to find causes and fixes. Rebreathers are still new (recreationally and technically) and have gone mainstrean like gangbusters. There are high end and low end. We choose according to our own economic standing, that is the way it is. What should be and what ought to be is not how the real world is.

I don't dive a rebreather. I do dive caves with divers that do and I need to know these things. I need to know what to do if or when something happens. Maybe one day the bugs will be worked out, but right now they are not. This thread is not about bashing rebreathers. It is also not about putting our heads in the sand.

In a perfect world every rebreather would perform perfectly and every RB diver would always do everything right when maintaining and diving their unit. In a perfect world when we get older and medical issues arrive (they will) we will gracefully bow out because we might have a heart attack, stroke or whatever. That is not going to happen. At 47 I still think I feel like I did when I was 20. I know that is not true, but in my head I haven't aged. Discussion like this brings up a lot of good information and helps show patterns.

Like I said, "you don't know what you don't know" I would hope that you don't take this for the flaming you expected because I sincerely do not mean it that way. I intend for this to give you a bit of information you may not have been aware of while reading this. It is obvious that rebreathers are important to you. In the end make sure you go home after every dive and don't ever think that it will never happen to you....that is complacency. Mark :coffee:
 
Re-read my post. I did not say solo had anything to do with this incident. I said that solo carries the additional risk that a debilitating event will kill you, and that that eventuality must be part of the solo decision. Let's not overcomplicate it.
Sure, you can construct a dive scenario where the debilitation=death risk is already part of the plan anyway, and in that case the decision on whether or not a buddy adds use or risk to the dive must be part of the decision-making process... but how many dives have that as part of the plan? Aside from a few one-man-job dives or dives where the cave looks like it's giving birth to a diver there just ain't many, and to base a "solo is just as safe" philosophy overall on those few is just not supportable.
My concern is that inexperienced divers who look up to you will take the "solo's just as safe" at face value and add the debilitation=death risk to a dive where it needn't be, without first admitting they're adding that risk, and accepting that they're adding that risk. No one wants to admit they may be suddenly incapacitated, but it does happen. It needn't be an automatic death sentence, unless you're solo (or on the extreme edge of the envelope).
Rick

I never said you are blaming this incident on him being solo. My last sentence was more of a general statement to everyone. My other comments were directed at this statement - the diver must be aware that solo diving always carries additional risk over the same dive with a buddy.


ucfdiver:
It's a safe assumption here that no matter what happened, with a buddy this diver would have been either rescued, or easier to recover and give the family some closure (not to mention financial aspects of the recovery), and hopefully we'd have something to learn from-- which we don't have now.

Or we would have 2 missing divers...


Hetland:
This was a charter trip. Technical divers are required to file a dive plan with the divemaster or Captain of this particular boat (this is pretty common to pensacola boats). A dive plan was in fact filed with the divemaster on this occasion, and a quick search was made along the route of that dive plan as soon as possible (within an hour or so of diver being overdue).

The only dive plan that was filed was a solo tech dive to 175' for 55 minutes. We asked if penetration was planned and were told they did not know. The quick search that was made was around the tower, down the escalator, and a quick look in the hanger bay because it was close enough to the tower to make sense with the little information they had about his dive.
 
Diving 4 years and rebreathers for 5-6 months. I am guessing early to mid twenties. In about 10 years think back on this....."you don't know what you don't know" There is a ton of experience on this board. Experience does not come from schooling, training, and reading about it. Experience comes from doing, over and over and over, in different environments and situations.

Over the past few years there have been 2 main categories of death in scuba diving. Medical issues and rebreathers. This incident, if it turns out to be fatal, will likely be one of the two. Rebreathers do not reach out and murder divers. They are machines. Compared to OC the numbers are much higher when it comes to fatalities. Bad sensors, failure to service properly, electronics failure, the list goes on. This stuff is happening and we need to know what and why. Discussions bring up information. Information leads to patterns. Patterns lead people to find causes and fixes. Rebreathers are still new (recreationally and technically) and have gone mainstrean like gangbusters. There are high end and low end. We choose according to our own economic standing, that is the way it is. What should be and what ought to be is not how the real world is.

I don't dive a rebreather. I do dive caves with divers that do and I need to know these things. I need to know what to do if or when something happens. Maybe one day the bugs will be worked out, but right now they are not. This thread is not about bashing rebreathers. It is also not about putting our heads in the sand.

In a perfect world every rebreather would perform perfectly and every RB diver would always do everything right when maintaining and diving their unit. In a perfect world when we get older and medical issues arrive (they will) we will gracefully bow out because we might have a heart attack, stroke or whatever. That is not going to happen. At 47 I still think I feel like I did when I was 20. I know that is not true, but in my head I haven't aged. Discussion like this brings up a lot of good information and helps show patterns.

Like I said, "you don't know what you don't know" I would hope that you don't take this for the flaming you expected because I sincerely do not mean it that way. I intend for this to give you a bit of information you may not have been aware of while reading this. It is obvious that rebreathers are important to you. In the end make sure you go home after every dive and don't ever think that it will never happen to you....that is complacency. Mark :coffee:

I do not take it as flaming but that is always the response I get for my age. No matter what a person in their 20s will never know what is good for them, not be mature, wont know how to handle things, or know enough to live. That is perfectly fine. It is quite amazing what you can do in your 20s or even know but only a few will ever give a person of that age a chance to show the world.

I def do not know everything nor will ever nor do I want to know everything. That takes the fun out of life. I take advice dont get me wrong.

I never said it will never happen to me. I made sure I didn't say that because it can and has a good chance that it will. I take that chance. I will now be changing my profile because most people will not read my stuff before throwing it out.

I will be more than happy to answer any questions or comments through a pm because this is about an accident not about young people on rebreathers.
 
If the diver had an hour of deco, the current would have moved him East (iirc) until he surfaced, at which time, he would have been pushed North by the wind-driven waves, and the 10-15kt winds..

I gotta disagree. The current would have trumped the wind and waves.

1. I've got about 800 days of diving off my boat (17' Boston Whaler Montauk) off Monterey. The current pushes the boat more than the wind and waves. My boat has probably twice the surface area above water as below water. A diver on the surface has maybe 1/20 the area above water as below. There's WAY more for the current to push on the diver than boat.

2. I know from experience that swimming back to the boat on the surface is a lot harder swimming into the current with wind behind you than vice-versa.

Chuck
 
I gotta disagree. The current would have trumped the wind and waves.

1. I've got about 800 days of diving off my boat (17' Boston Whaler Montauk) off Monterey. The current pushes the boat more than the wind and waves. My boat has probably twice the surface area above water as below water. A diver on the surface has maybe 1/20 the area above water as below. There's WAY more for the current to push on the diver than boat.

2. I know from experience that swimming back to the boat on the surface is a lot harder swimming into the current with wind behind you than vice-versa.

Chuck

Chuck, your observations about wind and waves can be true, but they can also be false.

I was operating a boat a few miles away, calling the anchor drops, deploying surface buoys with safety lines. I watched bubbles travel in one direction underwater, only to change direction slightly as they approached the surface.

I was operating my own @$$, both on the surface, and under the water. I watched as my position changed relative to the anchored vessel, both underwater, and at the surface.

We can argue a lot of things, but what the conditions were in that patch of the Gulf of Mexico 'aint one of 'em. :D
 
Hetland:
If the diver had an hour of deco, the current would have moved him East (iirc) until he surfaced, at which time, he would have been pushed North by the wind-driven waves, and the 10-15kt winds..
I gotta disagree. The current would have trumped the wind and waves.
Chuck, your observations about wind and waves can be true, but they can also be false.
Y'all are both right... and saying the same thing, sorta...
As a physics problem, unless the wind is blowing a couple hundred miles an hour, a diver on the surface with only his head above water will not have enough sail area to be wind driven, and will pretty much go with the current.
But... if a surface wind blows for long it will create a surface current moving in the same general direction as the wind, even if there is a substantial current running in another direction just a few feet below the surface.
It isn't unusual for the Gulf to be running more than one direction at the same time, especially in the area from Mississippi to Appalachicola. The generally clockwise open ocean current along the Gulf coast is interrupted by the Mississippi River peninsula (South Louisiana), and the current near the coast of Alabama and the Florida panhandle is filled with moving eddies that make the currents unpredictable, often layered and running in different directions, and sometimes strong. I have seen one of these currents roll in along the bottom like those pictures of approaching sandstorms in the desert, driving visibility from wonderful to awful instantly, and the water from calm to "hang-on-to-that-line-or-be-swept-away."
In the northern Gulf, when folks ask me "how much current will we have" on a dive I always answer "I'll let you know when we get back." Also, a strong current on the surface rarely means a strong current on the bottom, and no current on the surface doesn't guarantee a calm bottom.
--
FWIW, on one Oriskany trip earlier this summer, the wind was running out of the South about 10 kts; surface current was running East fast, much faster than I could swim, and it was a job hanging onto the down-line and getting under, pulling hard hand-over-hand. Several divers on the boat never even got down at all. At 18' the current suddenly went to dead calm, down to about 40 or so, where it picked up a mild westerly drift down to 150 (as deep as I went that dive). A "free" ascent with deco stops would have carried me a bit west for awhile, then stationary, and if I had to spend any time at 10' I would have been rocketing East... it was a good day to plan the final deco stop at 20', as a 10' stop would have to be made "flag" style hanging on a line.
Rick
 
I indicated earlier that I would share what I know at the right time. The following is my brief firsthand account from which hopefully some lessons may be learned. At the time of this post the diver is still listed as a missing person, however given the time that has passed, all involved have accepted that he has succumbed. All following references to, "the diver," refer to him. The timing of events are my perception and may not be accurate. Time seemed to both slowdown and speedup at various times as the events unfolded. These are my observations, alone. Other people may have different interpretations of the events contained herein. I will attempt to limit the scope of my account to the relevant facts.

The diver was part of a group of eight of us from the Los Angeles area that had travelled to Pensacola for three days of diving. Seven of us, including a DM and MSDT, were part of a basic wreck specialty class. The diver was not involved in the class, however his wife was one of the students. There was one other guest on the boat, who was an AOW diver visiting from Europe.

I will note that throughout this event, the boat captain and crew acted with the utmost professionalism, competence, and compassion. The safety diver on the boat was a highly accomplished technical diving instructor. The boat took great care in assessing our experience and verifying credentials. The safety diver thoroughly briefed the group, to a level I've never seen, and then spent considerable one-on-one time briefing/discussing the dive site with the diver.

The diver made two solo dives on Day 1 and followed his profiles precisely. He made one dive to the screws and one to the hanger bay. One the morning of Day 2, I observed him talking with the safety diver while looking at drawings/pictures of the wreck. Later, I asked the diver what his plans for his first dive were and he told me that he was going to enter and go down the escalator, tour the hanger bay and then exit. I asked him how deep he was planning and he said 175'. I was just making a casual inquiry so that's as much detail as we discussed. I did not ask what his runtime was going to be, though that information was given to the safety diver and captain.

The diver had over 3000 lifetime dives, over 30 years, and over 200 dives on the KISS rebreather he was using. He did have a bailout bottle with him on these dives. He planned his dives meticulously and spent more time preparing for dives and maintaining his equipment than anybody I know. He was extremely focused and took his diving very seriously. He had no reported health problems, and was known to go to the gym regularly. Several months back, he gave our club a presentation on rebreather technology and dive techniques. On this morning, he appeared to be in a cheerful mood.

Once on site we tied off, and another dive boat (the tech charter mentioned above) tied off on our line. We got into the water with our class, descended to the top of the superstructure, and conducted our exercises. I did not observe the diver at any point from the time we descended to the time we climbed back on the boat.

Conditions this day were not quite as good as the previous day. In my estimation, there were about a 1-3' wind waves. Vis' was maybe 50-60' and there was a current, which I don't have the experience to judge speed. It did take a bit of effort to kick from the line to the smokestack. Water temp at 100' was around 71 degrees and 77 degrees on the surface according to my computer.

The last person out of the water was the safety diver. As the diver was approaching the expected end of his dive, the Captain asked if he had been seen on the line. Nobody had seen him. Not long after he was noted overdue, the first question asked was if he was prone to changing his profile, to which his wife and our trip leader responded with a firm, "no, never."

Several other questions were asked as time progressed (a few minutes) to ascertain the divers health, state of mind, condition of equipment, etc. The safety diver returned to the water to see if he could spot him on the line, but he was not there.

I don't recall the exact sequence of events following, but within the next half hour, the safety diver made a dive to the hanger opening and returned reporting that he had shined his light all around the hanger and did not see him. The call went out to the Coast Guard. The other dive boat which, as reported above, had scratched their dives but volunteered to remain onsite and assist. After discussion with the Captain and safety diver, our trip leader, made a dive to the base of the tower to do a quick survey. He surfaced and reported he did not see him. We also made ready an O2 kit and AED while the safety diver was in the water.

By this time, the Coast Guard and assets from at least 3 other agencies were enroute. Several fishing boats in the area immediately offered assistance and began to search North of our position.

Everybody on the boat was scanning the water around us looking for any sign. At one point, 5 or 6 of us thought we saw a SMB a few hundred yards away. It appeared to be laying down in the water and not standing up as if under tension from a line or being held up by a diver. The Captain requested the other dive boat search in the area it was spotted. The diver was carrying at least one 8' SMB as part of the boat's DAN check in/out procedure. The other dive boat did not find what we thought we had seen and we did not see it again. Later during the day, a Hawksbill turtle surfaced near the boat. Given the orange-ish color of the turtle, several of us concluded that what we thought we had seen was in actuality a turtle.

Early on we were told that three volunteer technical divers were gearing up to come out that afternoon. I don't know if they ever did make it out, and did not hear anything further about them.

We remained on site until late in the afternoon, while the search continued around us. The fixed wing CG assets on site dropped two GPS enabled buoys to determine where and at rate a person on the surface would drift. With permission of the wife, the boat hauled up the line, and we returned to port. The boat left a marker buoy behind onsite. We were met at the dock by a Coast Guard investigator who took statements from all involved.

That evening, as reported above, a team of 12 divers assembled and prepared throughout the night to execute an underwater search and recovery off our dive boat the next morning. Our trip leader was allowed to go out with them, but was not permitted to dive, which he agreed was appropriate. He said of the team, that they were the most highly trained, qualified, and equipped group of divers he had ever seen and said that he felt like boy scout in their presence. Unfortunately, and not entirely unexpectedly, they were unable to find the diver. We met them at the dock and they debriefed the diver's wife. They told us that they circumnavigated the wreck, and thoroughly search all probable routes high and low.

Later that evening, representatives of the Coast Guard, a Captain, and the Lieutenant Commander overseeing the operation, met with us to tell us they were suspending the search. They explained the search methods employed and shared charts showing the extent of the search and the patterns of the individual assets. As a former Civil Air Patrol Mission Scanner, I was impressed. They also showed the diver's wife a draft of the press release to follow, which she approved.

It is with extreme gratitude, first to our safety diver, and to the Captain of our boat, that we thank you for your efforts. I would not hesitate to dive with you again. We thank our new friend from Europe for all of the assistance and comfort he provided while on the boat. Thank you to the Captain of the other boat that remained onsite to assist us. Thank you to all the men and women of the Coast Guard and other agencies involved. To the 12 divers, 10 of whom were volunteers, we saw the pain in your eyes, and how heavy your hearts were, as you stepped off the boat with your heads hung low. Every one of you is a hero to us. Thank you.

I'm not sure what lessons you will, or can, draw from this account or from the details released. We likely know all we will ever know of this tragedy. Truly, there is no telling what went wrong, or how it could have been prevented. We do not know if it was equipment induced, diver error, entanglement, or health related. There is no telling that having a buddy, or diving open circuit, would have made any difference in terms of his survival. All we know, is that he went down, and never came back. May he rest in peace.
 
Crap. RIP.
 
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