diver dies off redondo beach (puget sound)

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KrisB:
No mouth to mouth contact -- it was on a live person.

We had to complete the situation with both the instructor and classmates.

The situation began with a "non-responsive" individual lying face down in the water -- the procedure entailed turning them over, checking for vital signs, then beginning artificial respiration.

The practice had to be completed in both deep water (6') and shallow.

Again -- I didn't say it was easy... but it was doable for an 8 year-old.
Certainly its doable as presented i.e. simulated scenario in a controlled environment without the reality of actually keeping a person alive. It is manifestly more difficult to do in an uncontrolled environment when you must actually make a mouth to mouth seal while at the same time trying to prevent the victim from aspirating water. Bearing in mind that the victim is as limp as an overcooked spaghetti noodle. Add to this the need to tow a person while doing the AR in water is pretty much an unrealistic expectation.

Take a good rescue diver course from your agency of preference and you will see this is an exercise in futility. It is so much better to get the person out of the water as quickly as possible and onto a hard surface where rescusitation techniques can be more effectively applied.
 
jbd:
Chemotherapy is not always as hard on people as commonly percieved. Much improvement has been made in the medicines themselves as well as in other medicines to relieve the side effects. I've had some patients that didn't seem to be affected by chemo untila a day or two after the treatment was administered. The diver in this case may well have been someone who was tolerating the therapy quite well and felt it was reasonable to dive under the circumstances.

Thanks jbd, I've since been on the diving medicine to further my knowledge on this subject but you've shed some light on it.

Now, I'm fascinated by the thread about giving AR to the 200 lb. diver (no names :wink: ) while under water at 27ft (according to his computer) since it can be done in "with the strength/ability of an 8-year old." I'm a bit confused, is AR done while the victim is underwater or on the surface?

If on the surface, in my DM training (years ago), we had to learn how to do AR floating on the surface first by fully inflating the victim's BC, positioning in a head up/tilted back position and administering AR. Man was it tough but "DOABLE" (I can't even begin to imagine treading water while doing it). Of course, that was also a practice session without pressure situation and without the emotional attachment that Mrs. Diver had. But still DOABLE ... not practical but DOABLE. Is that the way it's supposed to be done?

If underwater, how's that done with an unconscious victim? Do you give him one long french kiss while surfacing to prevent the victim from breathing in water?? Is it even done underwater?
 
Too many typos on that thread ... gotta learn how to edit posts. Anyway, hope my questions are clear.
 
my situation was at the surface. I can only imagine it would be easier given the positive buoyancy of the patient.

I don't think doing AR underwater would be such a great idea -- keeping in mind the risk for both parties of an AGE.
 
KrisB:
my situation was at the surface. I can only imagine it would be easier given the positive buoyancy of the patient.

I don't think doing AR underwater would be such a great idea -- keeping in mind the risk for both parties of an AGE.

Easier than your training in a pool while treading water (BTW that was 16 years ago when you were 8?) ... maybe less exhausting for the AR administer. All I remember in my training was that it was very difficult keeping the victim's head in position that it can be administered (holding the nose, keeping water out, etc.) in a slight wave (2-3 feet) and with full gear (you want me to what .. dump my equipment ...NOT). With a BP/Wing, I'm not sure if I can do it effectively ... but if I need it I think it should be easier (they rescuers can flip me on my bag). Of course, they'll need to keep all my gear on but... That's another thing. Back then, we trained with horse collar BC where you can dump the tanks easily (easier than with today's integrated BC).

In a real world situation, I'm not sure a lone 5'2 woman/wife/diver could do it effectively. Bear in mind, the situation involved: concerned (maybe panicky?) wife (even well experienced), 80 ft of water, exposed to the elements (cold water, waves?), 192 lb victim. I'd challenge you to duplicate that situation and administer AR ... you may give up and call for help.

There's a lot of lessons to be learned from this sad accident. We should all take from it what we can. For me, I'll take your point about maintaining VERY close buddy contact particularly if a possible health risk is involved. I'll also consider practicing surface AR with my dive buddy when possible (maybe after the end of the dive??). I've already brushed up on the effects of cancer victims/chemo issues in the forum "Dive Medicine" as suggested by NWGratefuldiver and jbd. BTW, I'm still not convinced that diving with lung cancer is advisable, IN GENERAL, but that topic is best discussed in another thread ...

I will not go into any shouda/couda/wouda analysis since I wasn't there and all the news reports don't give much information. Further speculation would be pointless and insulting to the families involved.

I'll also practice underwater AR ... I think the long french kiss while ascending should be adopted ... now if I can only get Anglie Jolie to practice with me at least 5, 10 mabye 12 dozen times just to get it down pat :wink:
 
KrisB:
New possible analysis, in light of this information:

1. the dive was completed, he signaled it was time to end it
2. they ascended (albeit, not within contact range)
3. he surfaced first, failed to become positively bouyant, and suffered an attack of some sort (cardiac, pulmonary or otherwise), and sank back down
4. she surfaced and he wasn't there, proceeded to look for him
5. found him within 2 minutes of (3)
6. resurfaced and proceeded to pull him to safety.

A lot of assuming going on here ... see below.

KrisB:
Would this accident have been preventable with better buddy communication? Who knows -- it depends on what sort of attack happened in (3).

Probably not ... again I'll explain below.

KrisB:
Would he have received treatment sooner with better buddy communication? I think that's an unequivocal yes.

But the relevent question is "would have made a difference" ... and the unequivocal answer is "you don't know".

KrisB:
Now, not to point blame here, but even if the only difference was 2-3 minutes, the statistics show that every second counts when it comes to the possibility of successfully reviving a patient. If it was a pulmonary attack, she would have been able to administer mouth-to-mouth resucitation even before making it to shore, decreasing that time frame even further.

Kris, it's tough to tell but it looks from your profile that you're a reasonably inexperienced diver. If you haven't yet taken a Rescue class, one of the first things you will learn is that it's as important for you (the rescuer) to assure your own safety as it is to do all that you can for the diver you are trying to rescue. After all, if you injure yourself in the process of trying to save that diver, you've just complicated matters greatly. And you won't be able to help your buddy once you get to the surface.

Another thing you'll learn is that in the real world things rarely happen as they are described in the book ... what the course really gives you is the tools to make decisions, often in a snap-second, that may or may not bear any resemblence to what the book told you should happen. Rescues are like battles ... as soon as the action starts all plans go out the window and you make new ones based on what actually occurs. There are rarely cut-and-dry answers to what is the right thing to do ... it all depends on the circumstances at the time the accident is being handled.

Based on what I know of the accident, I believe this dive buddy did exactly as she should have. She accompanied the diver until they reached safety stop depth. At that point she stopped and he continued to the surface. Neither you nor I know why ... or if they had the opportunity to communicate that this is what they should do ... but there are situations where this is a valid response. Seeing her buddy go to the surface, she had every reasonable right to expect he'd be there when she came up, and that making a safety stop was a reasonable thing to do for her own safety. At that point she would be in the best position to render any assistance her buddy required without endangering herself in the process.

It's easy to look back at something like this in hindsight and say "she should have done this", or "she should have done that" ... but when you're in a real-life situation, you have no way of knowing what the outcome of something like this will be, or often you don't even know what's really going on since you are limited to hand-signals and visual cues only. You can only act within what your training and experience dictate. In this case, as near as I can tell, she did everything reasonably ... as she would have been taught in a competent rescue class ... to assist her dive buddy while at the same time assuring her own safety so that once she reached the surface she would be in a condition to render assistance to her dive buddy.

As an aside, it does seem to me that you are basing your observations simply on the idealized guidelines presented in an Open Water text. The real world presents a very different picture, and while it is right to ask questions about different scenarios, I think it is very wrong to do it in this thread. It seems to me that you have been saying all along that this person's dive buddy could have and should have responded differently. The simple truth is that you don't know that to be the case. Based on what we know, there is no basis for stating or implying that it is ... in fact, having spoken to people who are a lot closer to the situation than you are, I would conclude (as someone who teaches Rescue classes) that she did everything she possibly could have, and did so in accordance with how she was taught to do it.

I think that taking a Rescue class and getting some real-world diving experience would not only answer your questions better than anyone here possibly could, but would give you a very different perspective on what can really be done in a situation like this one.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Well said Bob! I wish people could respect this thread - someone has died. Please leave your ideas about rescue to another thread or start your own?
 
mrobinson:
Well said Bob! I wish people could respect this thread - someone has died. Please leave your ideas about rescue to another thread or start your own?
This seems like the right place to be discussing this.

Perhaps there should be a "condolences" board opened up here so that when something like this happens, everyone who wants to can say their condolences there and keep the noise in the "what happened" area to a minimum.

Call me insensitive if you want -- but really, what *is* the point of using this as a spot to just say "sorry to hear about that"???

Cheers,
 
cmgmg:
Easier than your training in a pool while treading water (BTW that was 16 years ago when you were 8?)

I didn't say it would be harder. I said "I don't think doing AR underwater would be such a great idea -- keeping in mind the risk for both parties of an AGE."

There is a difference there.

(and yes, your age calculation is reasonably correct -- though I am 25)
 
KrisB:
This seems like the right place to be discussing this.

Perhaps there should be a "condolences" board opened up here so that when something like this happens, everyone who wants to can say their condolences there and keep the noise in the "what happened" area to a minimum.

Call me insensitive if you want -- but really, what *is* the point of using this as a spot to just say "sorry to hear about that"???

Cheers,

There would only be a point in talking about what happened if you knew what happened. In this case, you don't.

You are making assumptions, and applying simplified theory, based on an inadequate understanding of what can, and often does, occur in situations like this one. That is further complicated by your own lack of training in how to appropriately deal with a real-life rescue situation.

Or, to put it simply, you don't know how much you don't know.

You are making judgmental comments about someone who had to deal with a real-life situation ... and you lack both the knowledge of what actually occurred and the training to understand what an appropriate response might be.

I see no value in that ... it provides nothing constructive.

As stated previously, I can respect your desire to further your understanding of how to deal with a situation like this. However, that should not be done in this thread. I recommend you start a topic in the Basic Discussions forum, asking "what if" type questions, where this can be done in a more appropriate manner.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
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