Diver dies at Molokai on Maui dive boat

[CuzzA]

Knowing what I've read and heard from other divers about Molokai, if I were the captain I would NOT be leaving any divers behind at that site. What do they call the channel there? The Molokai Express? End of story.

The way I see it is a diver suffered a medical emergency, possible dive injury, doing something that in most cases, due to the nature of our sport, typically doesn't end well.

Given the limited resources and limited medical expertise that is present on most dive boats, there was little chance the victim would survive. If the USCG wasn't delayed, it may have made a difference, but I would speculate an autopsy would prove the victim did not have a chance at survival regardless.

So, there's a lot of blame storming in this thread, which is against the rules. The issue here seems to be a criticism of medical attention. Some may be warranted and some may be inaccurate. Nevertheless, I doubt there was any malicious intent or negligence on the part of those providing medical attention. They are not nurses and doctors who save lives everyday and frankly if it were me and someone could provide better medical attention, then by all means, do it.

I certainly think there is something we can learn from this incident.

1) This sport has its risks. We all take that risk every time we descend and that risk is amplified when we are in areas far from immediate medical services. Even 30 minutes away is a long time for a serious medical emergency. We all need to have a little forethought about the situation we are putting ourselves into sometimes. It's quite clear to me if I get on a boat with technical divers, the operation will be much different than with a group that is solely doing no stop diving. So in that regard we need to consider that and either accept it or don't do the trip.

2) While many of us can recognize the potential issues regarding my aforementioned point, perhaps many don't realize it and a dive op needs to do one of two things. A) Brief divers that they run a mixed level of experience with decompression divers and if someone has an emergency the boat will not be leaving divers down which could delay medical attention, or B) Simply don't offer charters that mix decompression divers and no stop divers.

 

[Kevrumbo]

So there were no rotary wing assets (helicopter) available at that time for medevac. . .(?)

Even with the other emergencies happening that day, it still took the USCG that much time (-2 hrs?) to rendezvous with the diveboat?

 

[TheCraigFish55]

It sounds like this sport doesn't just have its risks. It sounds like we need to be completely self-sufficient and capable of saving ourselves and each other (as passengers) in the event of an accident. If an AED, oxygen kit, and CPR aren't necessary or important as you all seem to claim, then why does PADI require the training for dive professionals? Why do the boats carry an oxygen kit at all? If the dive professionals allow passengers to perform CPR on their behalf, then why should we pay "dive professionals" to even be on the boat? I'm tired of dive professionals checking my air all of the time anyway, so why do they keep asking me if they are apparently not going to perform CPR on me anyway? It just seems like the dive company has more of a motivation here to cover this story up as opposed to a passenger. The company could easily have ensured that their staff all produced a different story that would allow them to avoid any lawsuits. If the passenger had remained silent, none of you would be arguing right now.

 

[Altamira]

Exactly... this is why the crew is upset with her. Tripadvisor has become the #1 site on which to post your "I had a great time on vacation" reviews, so any negative review on TA is taken pretty seriously. A post of "these people are incompetent, unsafe and YOU COULD DIE if you dive with them!" appears to have an ulterior motive. It's possible the poster was just naive and thought TA was a good place for her story, but it's no surprise the crew is upset about it. If they were all Facebook friends, you would think there would have been some private discussion before her very public post.

As for inconsistencies... she admits she's not a dive pro, but she's certain the dive pros on board weren't doing what they were supposed to.

I'm sure there's another side to the story, but the professionals understand the importance of proper procedure, including where and how to report an incident like this one.

I don't know why you seem think TA is a place to just post favorable reviews of a business. I use TA as one of many resources to evaluate whether or not I want to use a particular business, and I value the bad reviews as I do the good. Realizing that all of the reviews are based on the reviewers' experiences at a specific point in time and situation, I evaluate the bad reviews in relationship to the entire range and percentages in each of the review rating categories. I certainly understand why a vendor would be angry at a bad review, but as a reviewer, my comments are meant not only to help the vendor identify and hopefully correct the situation, but to let others know of my experiences at that point in time. I only give a bad review of a business when my experience with a particular vendor has been unacceptable, and I could care less whether the vendor is unhappy with my review. Unfortunately, when something bad happens to most businesses and people, CYA becomes the theme of the day, and people will often distort the truth to avoid or divert unfavorable press or legal problems.

 

[doctormike]

If an AED, oxygen kit, and CPR aren't necessary or important as you all seem to claim, then why does PADI require the training for dive professionals? Why do the boats carry an oxygen kit at all?

Oxygen is absolutely important, should be on any dive boat (for DCS more than for the rare unforeseen cardiac event). An AED has it's benefits, but I don't see how it should be standard equipment on all dive boats, as discussed upthread. I don't believe that AED use is part of PADI training. It's for very specific arrhythmias, not just for any sort of dive related emergency. CPR training is standard for DMs and up, so any dive boat would have some people with that training, didn't see anyone arguing against that.

If the dive professionals allow passengers to perform CPR on their behalf, then why should we pay "dive professionals" to even be on the boat?

They are there for the diving. In case of an emergency requiring CPR, especially for a prolonged time, it's good to have a rotation and there is no reason why a trained passenger shouldn't participate in chest compressions or ventilation.

It just seems like the dive company has more of a motivation here to cover this story up as opposed to a passenger. The company could easily have ensured that their staff all produced a different story that would allow them to avoid any lawsuits. If the passenger had remained silent, none of you would be arguing right now.

It sounds more like two different views of the same events. But if neither of us was there, so it's pretty hard to discuss the specifics of the resuscitation.

 

[CuzzA]

If an AED, oxygen kit, and CPR aren't necessary or important as you all seem to claim...

Who here has made this claim? Or did you just make that up?

Seriously, a customer reported this incident and I'm glad she did and has participated in this thread. Did you expect the dive op to post this report on Trip Advisor or ScubaBoard that one of their customers died? Give me a break. Cover up? Of course they are going to defend themselves.

She was critical about how medical aid was administered, which is fine if warranted, but then there's her original and follow up posts questioning a lack of procedure for recalling divers under a decompression obligation. Which is nonsense. The procedure is... You wait.

And yes, we hear about customers providing medical assistance over staff all the time. More commonly on airplanes that have medical professionals traveling onboard, but I've heard the stories on dive boats as well. So what?

I believe she may have some valid points about how the CPR was conducted, but then again, I'm curious to know if it would have mattered. CPR won't save you if your heart exploded, for example.

 

[red_tide]

One small point – the conditions were reported as 10 – 12 seas and the dive site was 30 miles out, listed as a 45 – 60 minute ride. I own a boat and do a lot of boating, so I seriously doubt that boat could make the return trip in 60 minutes under those conditions. Those boats cruise at 25 – 30 mph but not in 10 – 12 foot seas. If those conditions held, the return trip could have been 1.5 hours or longer.

Under those conditions, a Coast Guard helo would have been the fastest option for medical help.

 

[sea_ledford]

To address some of the "why can't the dive op leave and come back" "why did the USCG take so long" questions:

Molokai is a long and rough trip. I used to work as both a captain and dive guide for Extended Horizons which also runs out of Lahaina. We'd do Molokai about 3 or 4 times per year when the passengers were good enough (and we knew it, not taking their words for it) and conditions were mellow enough. It just didn't happen very often. When I left Maui in 2008, LD was just starting their weekly guaranteed Molokai trips. My first thought was "well that is about the dumbest idea I've heard in a long time." The LD boats are a little bigger than EH, but it's still a rough crossing.

In Hawaii, as the day gets later, the seas come up. Just because it was possible in the AM, doesn't mean they'll be able to get back out in the PM. So leaving a diver out there to go back in an emergency is basically abandoning that diver for the next 24 hours. I could have a deco diver tell me personally to leave them behind in an emergency and I still wouldn't do it. First rule of rescues: don't make more victims.

Someone mentioned taking the patent to Molokai. That would probably be a farther trip than going back to Maui, and Molokai probably wouldn't have the facilities to do anything with him anyway, except send him on a helo to Oahu. A helo from Maui would probably be at least 1 hour away unless they were already in the air with nothing else to do and on the west side of Maui.

It's hard to imagine if you haven't even been there and experienced a variety of conditions, but Mokuho'oniki can be a long way from any help.

This sounds like a crappy situation all around, likely with nothing to be done to change the outcome. Condolences to the family, passengers and crew.

-Chris

 

[lamarpaulski]

To address some of the "why can't the dive op leave and come back" "why did the USCG take so long" questions:

Molokai is a long and rough trip. I used to work as both a captain and dive guide for Extended Horizons which also runs out of Lahaina. We'd do Molokai about 3 or 4 times per year when the passengers were good enough (and we knew it, not taking their words for it) and conditions were mellow enough. It just didn't happen very often. When I left Maui in 2008, LD was just starting their weekly guaranteed Molokai trips. My first thought was "well that is about the dumbest idea I've heard in a long time." The LD boats are a little bigger than EH, but it's still a rough crossing.

In Hawaii, as the day gets later, the seas come up. Just because it was possible in the AM, doesn't mean they'll be able to get back out in the PM. So leaving a diver out there to go back in an emergency is basically abandoning that diver for the next 24 hours. I could have a deco diver tell me personally to leave them behind in an emergency and I still wouldn't do it. First rule of rescues: don't make more victims.

Someone mentioned taking the patent to Molokai. That would probably be a farther trip than going back to Maui, and Molokai probably wouldn't have the facilities to do anything with him anyway, except send him on a helo to Oahu. A helo from Maui would probably be at least 1 hour away unless they were already in the air with nothing else to do and on the west side of Maui.

It's hard to imagine if you haven't even been there and experienced a variety of conditions, but Mokuho'oniki can be a long way from any help.

This sounds like a crappy situation all around, likely with nothing to be done to change the outcome. Condolences to the family, passengers and crew.

-Chris

You mentioned one thing that could be done in the future - stop guaranteeing passage like a bus service if place and time of year is unsuited/often unsafe for it. If you take passengers out Come Hell or High Water you might get both. OP reported rough seas and seasickness a possible factor.

 

[boulderjohn]

So, there's a lot of blame storming in this thread, which is against the rules.

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Yes, there is a lot of blamestorming going on in this thread, and yes, it is against the rules. Unfortunately, we did not realize it until now, with the thread almost having run its course. This leaves us in a tough position. Accusations have been made, and those accused have responded. To go back and delete 75% of this thread after it has almost run its course would deprive the ones accused of their chance to respond. At this time, we are going to leave the previous posts in and remind people of the rules. Our minds could be changed with further discussion, though.

To avoid blamestorming, you can speak of issues in a generic sense, discussing what was learned without attacking specific individuals. For example, the wisdom of having different dive groups with different timed dives on a boat in general would be a good topic of discussion.

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