Diver Deaths by Agency?

[The Kraken]

The better question would be, what is the percentage of divers certified by agency XYZ that have fallen victim to a fatal diving accident?

Not to be confused with "died while diving" (strokes, heart attacks, etc. which would have occurred regardless of the environment)

the K

 

[Rick Murchison]

... And as for which agency would "get the blame" in cases of multiple agency certifications, I would think that it would be the agency that issued the OW.

Why would you think that? It seems to me that the Scuba safety aspects - procedures, principles and practices - of an OW cert are quickly eclipsed by follow-on training, and that any realistic agency association with a mishap should be applied to the "most applicable." Would you really assign YMCA, where I got my OW cert in 1971, responsibility for a mishap if I have one now? I'm an instructor with SSI but I took my instructor training through NAUI and NASDS, crossing over to SSI when NASDS & SSI rejoined - would you assign SSI responsibility if I were to get bent on a multi-gas deep decompression dive? (Training for such dives has come from NAUI, TDI, IANTD, NSS-CDS and NACD)
No, in my analysis of "Agency assignment" to a mishap, we need to look at what happened with specific reference to the standards and common practices within an agency's activities. If the mishap victim violates established standards & practices then there's no legitimate agency association (unless there's a whole bunch of the same violation indicating we don't have a clear understanding of the agency's real vs professed practices). If, on the other hand, the following of a common practice - like settling to the bottom to get on the knees to clear a flooded mask - contributes to the silt-out that contributes to the ultimate mishap, then the agency or agencies that instilled that habit needs to be taken to task.
Rick

 

[billy_b4c]

Why would you think that? It seems to me that the Scuba safety aspects - procedures, principles and practices - of an OW cert are quickly eclipsed by follow-on training, and that any realistic agency association with a mishap should be applied to the "most applicable." Would you really assign YMCA, where I got my OW cert in 1971, responsibility for a mishap if I have one now? I'm an instructor with SSI...

Hi Rick -

No, I think in the case of a professional that they would chalk that one up to your current affiliation, but all of this is really hypothetical. We can't get this data, if it exists at all. Imagine the lawyer feeding frenzy if one agency was to use it against another.

 

[BKP]

IIRC, DAN has been publishing numbers that infer the risk by gender.


-hh

Actually, I believe that might have a tad greater credibility...

One of the industry mags had done a male vs female diving strengths/weaknesses comparison (more anecdotal than empirical, however). It used basic precepts such as comparative SAC rate, overall strength, pre-disposition to panic, health issues, etc.

If I can find it, I'll post the mag/issue if anyone's interested.

 

[jviehe]

IIRC, DAN has been publishing numbers that infer the risk by gender.


-hh

I wouldnt say that they "infer" anything. They only report the statistics. Im not sure they draw conclusions from them.

 

[Walter]

I think the blame should go to the diver themselves, not the agency. It is because of the diver's health or mental state that caused them to die. My aunt who scuba dive years ago died was not because she was PADI but because she panic underwater in Pt. Lobos in 2004. I took classes in both NAUI and PADI and all of them are very careful in making sure divers play it safe. Had she followed proper procedure on how to untangle in kelp, she would have been alive. Anyways, thats my 2 cent opinion.

Of course, if she were taught about the panic cycle and how to break it as well as having learned skills required by some agencies, but sadly missing from most OW courses, she would probably still be with you. It probably wasn't her fault. Forgive her.

 

[Rick Murchison]

Hi Rick -

No, I think in the case of a professional that they would chalk that one up to your current affiliation, but all of this is really hypothetical. We can't get this data, if it exists at all. Imagine the lawyer feeding frenzy if one agency was to use it against another.

Well, thankfully, the fatality numbers for Scuba are as low as most any other watersport activity, barely enough to make it out of the statistical "noise" for the number of participants, so, whatever our gut feelings about agency shortcomings, the statistics support a "safe" rather than "reckless" package.
Here on SB we see every fatality and many get "loud" treatment and enough wild speculation to spread blame with a very broad brush indeed.
So, while I think there's a lot of "leaping logic" in most mishap threads, I still think it's worthwhile to reflect on agency practices, general and specific, and how they might be improved to lower our already very low mishap rate. Zero may not be attainable, but aiming for it constantly is the best way to get closer.
With that in mind, I think that "Diver Deaths by Agency" isn't something that can be quantified in a worthwhile fashion, but I do think that mishaps should be examined with a critical eye towards what the diver did and what the diver was trained to do, and whether there is an agency level action item in there somewhere. Often there won't be, because the mishap victim violated the practices & procedures he was taught, and sometimes it'll be an industry-wide change... but every now and then there's a need for just one or two agencies to change what they're doing, and we shouldn't sweep such findings aside as "agency bashing."
Rick

 

[billy_b4c]

Well said, Rick! I agree with you completely, but it woulda been nice to have some data to throw back at him! lol!

 

[cmalinowski]

Well said, Rick! I agree with you completely, but it woulda been nice to have some data to throw back at him! lol!

Just make something up like he did

 

[jviehe]

Of course, if she were taught about the panic cycle and how to break it as well as having learned skills required by some agencies, but sadly missing from most OW courses, she would probably still be with you. It probably wasn't her fault. Forgive her.

I dont know about most courses, but PADI teaches how to respond to emergencies and thus panic. Stop. Breath. Think. Act.