Diver Death in Cayman

[diversteve]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

This thread has been edited and renamed. Some content not related to the original topic has been removed.

Also a new thread about Divemaster Responsibilities has been split-off and posted in Basic Scuba Discussions called Divemaster Responsibilities: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/287029-divemaster-responsibilities.html

Please keep comments civil and on-topic.

Thank you.

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[pilot fish]

The difference being, you are an experienced diver and know the realities of diving and what the LIMITED role of a DM on a boat is. The new diver does not have that knowledge yet. While the role of a dive master is limited, don't you think THIS DM should have kept an eye on the newbie diver more closely? He also should not have allowed two seperate groups, both of which had brand new divers- he, the deceased and his girlfreind, who dove with OP.

Please accept my condolences for your friend's death. It is obviously an emotionally charged issue for you, and this might be a difficult discussion for you. You should be aware that the intent of this forum is to analyze diving accidents and deaths to try to glean some lessons other divers can use to make their dives safer.

A lot of divers have expectations of their divemasters that are different from yours. For example, I do not expect, or want, ok signs, checks on air, buddy assignments, or even pointing out cool things. I am okay with dancing and jokes. I take responsibility for my own safety, but I do expect a briefing on the dive site that includes enough information for me to navigate the site and anticipate hazards like current or tide. If this information is not volunteered, I ask. Were these factors in your friend's death?

 

[Rick Murchison]

blanket apology to this thread. I now see the clarification that op posted since the inception of this thread. It is now clearer that dive op and dm are not as much to blame as i originally thought. Diver now has a bigger part of the blame.

(3) No trolling; no blamestorming. Mishap analysis does not lay blame, it finds causes.

emphasis added. I'm not singling you out for ridicule in particular, PF, just using your post as it's the best illumination of why this thread got pulled in the first place, and why it's likely to disappear again. The thread started the blamestorming in its very first post.
All of you... please at least try to comply with the A&I special rules.

Rick

 

[pilot fish]

I know this post was a while ago but I just got an email from a rep from Padi and she told me that the DM on our boat is a PADI Instructor. I hope that clears up at least what the guy was as far as his cert goes.

The fact that he is a PADI Instructor makes it all the more appalling. What the hell did he learn in his "training"?

 

[pilot fish]

Frankly I think you were right at the start. It really doesn't matter if the DM was buddied up one on one with the deceased or was the Person In Charge of the dive, in absolute terms, he failed in his duty ... the only question is a matter of degree.

We agree. I'm not absolving this "DM" but diminishing his liabilty a few degrees. The question remains, does a DM/DG have a responsibilty to keep a close eye on a brand new diver and shouldn't the fact that the deceased wanted to go to 100 ft been a RED FLAG to person leading the dive, no matter what we call them??

 

[Jim Lapenta]

This what I've been saying all along. Not to place blame but to focus on the responsibilities of all parties involved. Too often when an accident happens it is because someone, somewhere, at some time did not take responsibility for their actions. As a result something that later turns out to be critical was overlooked, forgotten, or not considered. If we want to analyze why something happened, or speculate on why it did we do need to consider this factor. If the mods wish to call that placing blame so be it, but when an incident occurs that is not the result of equipment failure or an act of God, if we do not consider the human factor an point out where the failure points were as to that aspect the analysis is nearly impossible. In addition no one learns anything when we refuse to look at the root causes of these things. Especially when it involves poor communication, sub par training( was going to say substandard but many times standards have been followed unfortunately), or a disregard for training, the fault must lay with someone. If I do not know where I failed I cannot keep from making the same mistake again. Maybe it is a bitter pill to swallow but a bitter pill is better than a dead diver. So I'm respectfully asking the mods to be careful when threatening pulling the thread for placing blame. Especially when that is what is required to get the point across and possibly save lives. At the same time lets now focus on what could be done right as a result of these lessons to benefit others. That should be the legacy of this discussion.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

We agree. I'm not absolving this "DM" but diminishing his liabilty a few degrees. The question remains, does a DM/DG have a responsibilty to keep a close eye on a brand new diver and shouldn't the fact that the deceased wanted to go to 100 ft been a RED FLAG to person leading the dive, no matter what we call them??

Does he? Perhaps but he also has others to be responsible for. And if the Dm is not SPECIFICALLY contracted to do this the safety and security of the group will take precendence. Not good but that's what happens when these types of dives are done. No one person can possibly be expected to watch over every person. Should the newbie get a little more attention? Ideally yes but eperienced divers can have problems as well. It is the divers responsibility to look out for themselves and thei buddy if diving with one. The DM was not the divers "buddy". He was leading a group. In my opinion this dive should never have happened at all. And hopefully more people are aware of that now and will know when to say I'm not doing it. If they don't and it is not made clear when this should occur expect more deaths. If they still expect a Dm leading a group to watch out for everyone and keep everyone safe then they should not be surprised if this does not happen. Take charge of your own safety or stay out of the water.

 

[Cave Diver]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

This thread has been edited and renamed. Some content not related to the original topic has been removed.

Also a new thread about Divemaster Responsibilities has been split-off and posted in Basic Scuba Discussions called Divemaster Responsibilities: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/287029-divemaster-responsibilities.html

Please keep comments civil and on-topic.

Thank you.

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Steve,

Thank you for the effort you and/or the rest of the staff took in wading through all the posts and returning the meat of the content to the discussion. There was too much good info discussed and debated in the thread to see it lost forever under the noise of some of the heated exchanges that occured.

 

[pilot fish]

Yes, that's all true but the brand new diver does not have that amount of dive savy yet. They mistakingly think the DM should know better, take them to an appropriate site, etc. Would you agree this DM/DG should not have split that group up, that conisisted of two seperate groups of brand new divers? Keep in mind, it is now verified, this DM was a PADI Intructor.

Does he? Perhaps but he also has others to be responsible for. And if the Dm is not SPECIFICALLY contracted to do this the safety and security of the group will take precendence. Not good but that's what happens when these types of dives are done. No one person can possibly be expected to watch over every person. Should the newbie get a little more attention? Ideally yes but eperienced divers can have problems as well. It is the divers responsibility to look out for themselves and thei buddy if diving with one. The DM was not the divers "buddy". He was leading a group. In my opinion this dive should never have happened at all. And hopefully more people are aware of that now and will know when to say I'm not doing it. If they don't and it is not made clear when this should occur expect more deaths. If they still expect a Dm leading a group to watch out for everyone and keep everyone safe then they should not be surprised if this does not happen. Take charge of your own safety or stay out of the water.

 

[GaryLee]

Why are people still trying to apportion Blame.. That's not going to help descover what actually happened to the diver and how to stop it happening again. We can discuss Divemaster and Dive Guides and their roles and responsibilities in the spin off thread and get to the reasons leading up to this death in clear, factual and non emotive words so that instructors and professionals that frequent this board can learn from it.
Having said that, I posted on here Post Number 690 and am very suprised I've not had any responses from all the contributers who want to know the facts .
Anyway, we still have the Ops Statements to try to find out what really happened.

It's already gone from The guide was buddied with the deceased to it was a dive group.

My suggestion is:
When we look at the buddy pairs The Op and the deceased's fiance buddied together (there is no argument on that). There was a couple on the boat, they surely buddied together as they knew no one else and travelled together so why wouldn't they? This left the Op's Partner, the Deceased and a minor. The Guide buddied with the Minor which left two men, one whom was the deceased (both knew each other) Buddying together whilst their partners buddied at a shallower depth

Now what would be really interesting is if the Op's partner could give us their perspective. or even the other couple but at the moment the only Hard Evidence that we can get is the Autopsy report.