Diver Death in Cayman

[Cave Diver]

Yes, that's all true but the brand new diver does not have that amount of dive savy yet. They mistakingly think the DM should know better, take them to an appropriate site, etc. Would you agree this DM/DG should not have split that group up, that conisisted of two seperate groups of brand new divers? Keep in mind, it is now verified, this DM was a PADI Intructor.

This question may be better addressed in the new thread: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/287029-divemaster-responsibilities.html

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Why are people still trying to apportion Blame.. That's not going to help descover what actually happened to the diver and how to stop it happening again. We can discuss Divemaster and Dive Guides and their roles and responsibilities in the spin off thread and get to the reasons leading up to this death in clear, factual and non emotive words so that instructors and professionals that frequent this board can learn from it.
Having said that, I posted on here Post Number 690 and am very suprised I've not had any responses from all the contributers who want to know the facts .
Anyway, we still have the Ops Statements to try to find out what really happened.

It's already gone from The guide was buddied with the deceased to it was a dive group.

My suggestion is:
When we look at the buddy pairs The Op and the deceased's fiance buddied together (there is no argument on that). There was a couple on the boat, they surely buddied together as they knew no one else and travelled together so why wouldn't they? This left the Op's Partner, the Deceased and a minor. The Guide buddied with the Minor which left two men, one whom was the deceased (both knew each other) Buddying together whilst their partners buddied at a shallower depth

Now what would be really interesting is if the Op's partner could give us their perspective. or even the other couple but at the moment the only Hard Evidence that we can get is the Autopsy report.

I have been in touch with the OP off board. I don't know if the deceased partner will ever look at this thread let alone post. But yes I for one would like to see the results not only of the autopsy but of the inquest.

 

[GaryLee]

I have been in touch with the OP off board. I don't know if the deceased partner will ever look at this thread let alone post. But yes I for one would like to see the results not only of the autopsy but of the inquest.

I mean't the OPs Partner, he was diving with the deceased, either as a buddy pair in my synopsis or in the group as per the OPs posting.

Well The Autopsy is public record for the UK as Cayman is governed by UK law and I am looking into that.
I never even thought of the inquest, A further avenue for me to look into.

 

[CDNScubaMoose]

Yes, that's all true but the brand new diver does not have that amount of dive savy yet. They mistakingly think the DM should know better, take them to an appropriate site, etc. Would you agree this DM/DG should not have split that group up, that conisisted of two seperate groups of brand new divers? Keep in mind, it is now verified, this DM was a PADI Intructor.

Where in the world would anybody get the idea that they could/should check their personal responsibility at the door and let someone they just met take 100% (even 1% for that matter) responsibility for them? As I see it - either society is helping to develop this viewpoint or new divers are picking it up from somewhere else - their original instructor?

 

[Knuspar]

I read from page 1- 7 of the posts .. and if i may ask .. if you fosterboxermom and hes wife were "hovering above the group" how come you dident look out for your buddy ? I might be me beeing used to diving in cold water with 3-20 feet of visibility, but i ALWAYS know where my buddy is.

You also wrote in a post that your desceased mate wanted to go deep, to say he did it, thats just #¤%&¤%# lame if i may add. I dove 32 meters once and thats the deepest i ever went, and i got back up to 22 meters in a minutes again, cuz there was not much to see at 32 meters where i was. Point beeing, dont dive deep to dive deep, you have to have a purpose. As for the narcosis .. id say sure, could be it .. 345 feet is even 150 feet past regular airs ( 21% O2 ) safety dept which could lead to oxygen toxication.

None the les s.. damned tragic story, regalrdless who to blame .. just tragic

My condolences to both you and hes wife, and whatever family he leaves behind.

 

[Jan Kruger]

Took me ages to read all the comments so far, i actually allmost couln't keep up with it.

Where i'm from, when we dive in general ,but especially if we dive with a newly qualified diver in our group we make sure about:
1)Which dive site we dive at-it gets discussed with the DM leading the dive.
2) The depth of the dive.
3) We would make sure we inform the DM about the new diver and his lack of diving experience.
4) We would arrange with the DM who will be the new diver's buddy- normally at least an advanced open water diver with rescue diving speciality-which we have a few of in our diving group-or we would specially arrange with the DM that he/she wil buddy up with the new diver.
5) The DM also appoints a back up DM should the DM have to escourt someone to the surface for whatever reason- like the time one of the divers in the group had an asthma attack at 20 metres depth - or the time one of the divers had an epeleptic fit under water both whom were with other groups of divers who joined our dives.
6) We make sure we get a proper dive briefing from the DM - even if we have to openly discuss signals had the DM not done it - to ensure us and the DM knows what is what.
7) We ensure we stay close to the new diver and keep an eye on him/her as well as to comfort him/her by pointing out interesting objects underwater , assisting with bouyancy issues etc.

I am sure i read somewhere that the DM in this case was informed several times that the deceased was a new and inexperienced open water diver. This already should have alerted the DM to the fact that the depth was wrong for this dive, that the group should not have been split up ,that a proper dive briefing should have been done,that buddies should have been assigned, and that care should have been taken to keep an eye on the group whilst diving.A back up plan should have been decided on as well.

 

[CDNScubaMoose]

This is from the PADI DM course - Chapter #2 from the manual (Supervising Certified Divers).

Question from the Knowledge Review: "Describe the aspects of diving that do and do not fall within the divemaster's responsibility, and the aspect of dive planning and diving for which each diver must retain responsibility"

Answer from the Instrcutor Manual: "Each diver maintains responsibility for planning their own dives and following their plan. Divers must be responsible for their own actions. A PADI Divemaster normally offers a general orientation and broad dive plan that individual divers use to plan their own dives. The Divemaster encourages responsible diving, provides logistical support, prepares for reasonable foreseeable emergencies, but does not plan the dives of individual divers."

 

[Knuspar]

This is from the PADI DM course - Chapter #2 from the manual (Supervising Certified Divers).

Question from the Knowledge Review: "Describe the aspects of diving that do and do not fall within the divemaster's responsibility, and the aspect of dive planning and diving for which each diver must retain responsibility"

Answer from the Instrcutor Manual: "Each diver maintains responsibility for planning their own dives and following their plan. Divers must be responsible for their own actions. A PADI Divemaster normally offers a general orientation and broad dive plan that individual divers use to plan their own dives. The Divemaster encourages responsible diving, provides logistical support, prepares for reasonable foreseeable emergencies, but does not plan the dives of individual divers."

Thank you for taking the time to dig out the manual. Hell .. im just a AOWD diver and even i know that .. even my newly certified OWD friends know this.

What im trying to say is, it pretty obvious that one should never neglect the safety of one self regardless of the high thoughts one might have for a dive master. DMs are guides to me, and i think they should be to the rest of us.

Would it not be pretty much the same if you went with a guide in ie. yellowstone national park .. and just because the guide is there, you just have to go check out that grizzley up close and persoanl ... do you expect the guide to beat the grizzley and save you?

 

[pilot fish]

None of that was done. If this "DM" had done just that, this diver would have lived to dive another day.

This is from the PADI DM course - Chapter #2 from the manual (Supervising Certified Divers).

Question from the Knowledge Review: "Describe the aspects of diving that do and do not fall within the divemaster's responsibility, and the aspect of dive planning and diving for which each diver must retain responsibility"

Answer from the Instrcutor Manual: "Each diver maintains responsibility for planning their own dives and following their plan. Divers must be responsible for their own actions. A PADI Divemaster normally offers a general orientation and broad dive plan that individual divers use to plan their own dives. The Divemaster encourages responsible diving, provides logistical support, prepares for reasonable foreseeable emergencies, but does not plan the dives of individual divers."

 

[CDNScubaMoose]

None of that was done. If this "DM" had done just that, this diver would have lived to dive another day.

Other things not done:

1) Victim did NOT plan his own dive. The OP planned hers.
2) If the victim did plan his dive - he did NOT follow it ... unless swimming to 345' was part of his plan

Unfornately the victim did take the ultimate responsibility for his actions. However - if he had dove conservatively which his training did (or should have) trained him to do then as you say - he would have lived to dive another dive.

Please PF - answer me why you think it is ok to hand over responsibility for your well being to someone you have just met for the first time? This just doesn't make sense to me - I don't understand how you can justify this?

Was this diver that naive in understanding the risks of this type of dive? Did he have a belief that nothing bad could happen to him? Did his training lead him to believe that he would have a babysitter on his dives? I am asking - why didn't he say NO!!!

I am not saying that the dive site wasn't a poor selection, however you have the right as a diver to refuse any dive for any reason. DON'T DO TRUST ME DIVES.