Diver Death in Cayman

[pilot fish]

I believe you have solved a very important piece of this incident. I'm thinking you are accurate. As C D asked, does that change anything for you fellow divers?

Now let's take things in a completely different direction...

We've beat the subject of DM responsibilities almost to death in this thread. However if I was going to take an educated guess, I'd bet that there was NOT a DM on this dive. It's much more likely that this person was an OWSI (Open Water Scuba Instructor).

My reason for thinking this is that Cayman requires foriegners to have a work permit in order to seek employment. The cost of this permit is usually absorbed by the employer. Since a DM has limited usefulness in teaching, in my experience, most of the dive op employees are instructors and just perform "DM duties" to give the employer the most bang for the buck.

Many of the posters in this thread have shifted their viewpoint on who was responsibile in light of the continuing addition of new information. I'd be curious to see if their view point changes if it turns out that the DM was in actuality an OWSI.

 

[captain]

Now let's take things in a completely different direction...


Many of the posters in this thread have shifted their viewpoint on who was responsibile in light of the continuing addition of new information. I'd be curious to see if their view point changes if it turns out that the DM was in actuality an OWSI.

I fail to see any difference. If he was not in a teaching mode and was just leading a guided tour what difference would it have made.

 

[rsldonk]

It would be interesting to see how Cayman's numbers stack up? Op says the itiy numbers are high there. Is that true?

Considering how much of an industry diving is in Cayman, their numbers are very low according to the DAN reports I quoted earlier. In terms of population of the islands, they have a very high incidence rate, but that's not really a valid number due to how many tourists visit and how many of those tourists are divers. For the number of dives logged in Cayman (I don't have a number for that) the few that croak I would bet are very low, especially compared to somewhere like Florida. I don't know how many dives are logged, but I would not be surprised if that number averaged over 1,000 dives per day. Breaking that down, 365,000 dives with only 7 resulting in ftaliities is almost so small as to be statistically insiginifcant.

I know I'm making some conjecture here, but from the data we do have from DAN it seems that Cayman is generally a safe place to dive.

 

[dkktsunami]

Cayman, specifically Little Cayman Beach Resort, is my favorite dive destination and is one of, if not the most, safety conscious dive operations that I have encountered. I have read only a portion of this thread but it sounds as if many of the posters would like to hold an entire country responsible for a dive accident. It is the diver's responsibility to assess the risk and to make decisions suitable for himself - the DM is not responsible for you, the dive service is not responsible for you, and certainly the entire country of Cayman is not.

 

[pilot fish]

Yes, Little Cayman is on my short list of places to dive. I've heard exactly what you said, but that has not been the consensus for Grand Cayman. Little Cayman and Cayman Brac are very different than Grand Cayman, where this fatality occured.

Cayman, specifically Little Cayman Beach Resort, is my favorite dive destination and is one of, if not the most, safety conscious dive operations that I have encountered. I have read only a portion of this thread but it sounds as if many of the posters would like to hold an entire country responsible for a dive accident. It is the diver's responsibility to assess the risk and to make decisions suitable for himself - the DM is not responsible for you, the dive service is not responsible for you, and certainly the entire country of Cayman is not.

 

[rsldonk]

Yes, Little Cayman is on my short list of places to dive. I've heard exactly what you said, but that has not been the consensus for Grand Cayman. Little Cayman and Cayman Brac are very different than Grand Cayman, where this fatality occured.

The DAN numbers don't even bear this out. As I quoted before, in DAN's 2007 report, there were 3 fatalities reported in the Cayman Islands (doesn't get specific as to which islands) which is fewer fatalities than Florida, California, British Columbia, Washington, New York and Ontario. Given how many dives occur in the Cayman Islands and that most of the divers there are "tourist" divers, you can't make that conclusion without also painting those other areas with the same broad brush.

The fact is, while not all Cayman operators are as concerned about safety as others (at least as described in this thread specifically with Diver's Down), the overall safety record in the Cayman Islands is amazing. The bottom line is that diver fatalities are bad for business and while there may be some out there who are looking to make a quick buck, overall, the businesses have to be concerned with safety otherwise, they won't be in business for long.

I think that's really where I was having a hard time. While I only was able to do a two tank dive in Cayman, the operation I went with (Don Foster's) really was top notch in terms of safety.

 

[fosterboxermom]

Now let's take things in a completely different direction...

We've beat the subject of DM responsibilities almost to death in this thread. However if I was going to take an educated guess, I'd bet that there was NOT a DM on this dive. It's much more likely that this person was an OWSI (Open Water Scuba Instructor).

My reason for thinking this is that Cayman requires foriegners to have a work permit in order to seek employment. The cost of this permit is usually absorbed by the employer. Since a DM has limited usefulness in teaching, in my experience, most of the dive op employees are instructors and just perform "DM duties" to give the employer the most bang for the buck.

Many of the posters in this thread have shifted their viewpoint on who was responsibile in light of the continuing addition of new information. I'd be curious to see if their view point changes if it turns out that the DM was in actuality an OWSI.

I know this post was a while ago but I just got an email from a rep from Padi and she told me that the DM on our boat is a PADI Instructor. I hope that clears up at least what the guy was as far as his cert goes.

 

[Thalassamania]

blanket apology to this thread. I now see the clarification that op posted since the inception of this thread. It is now clearer that dive op and dm are not as much to blame as i originally thought. Diver now has a bigger part of the blame.

Frankly I think you were right at the start. It really doesn't matter if the DM was buddied up one on one with the deceased or was the Person In Charge of the dive, in absolute terms, he failed in his duty ... the only question is a matter of degree.

I have followed this entire mind-numbing thread and vowed I would not participate. Perhaps I can be helpful here.

I have posted on this topic often, since many people seem inclined to think that the opposite of what the reports convey is true. Here are two of my posts.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/3837369-post148.html

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ac...007-dan-report-gas-management-fatalities.html

In recent years, there is not a strong correlation between new divers and fatalities. There is a much stronger correlation between age (older divers) and health (heart conditions and obesity).

Another interesting factor is that for the last decade being examined (1995-2005), the total number of deaths from scuba in the area being studied (North America) is more than 40% lower than the first decade of study (1970-1980).

DAN's statistics for North America contradict the general notion that new divers are more likely to die while diving or that divers are dying at higher rates than in the past.

You are comparing apples and oranges. The NUADC's approach was to clasify any fatality that occured while scuba diving (we can argue that approach some other time) while DAN takes an differnet tack and does not, for example,see every heart attack the occurs underwater as a diving fatality.

Good Post boulderjohn.

There are some on this thread that downright insist that a new diver is helpless and is an accident waiting to happen. I disagree with that mindset completely.

I don't think that is what is being said, the point is that when the Person In Charge exercises the authority of his or her position to take a brand new diver to an inappropriate dive site, there is a tendency on the part of the new diver to say to themself, "well ... this guy's an Instructor and he seems to think it's all right." Sure ... bad move; sure ... stupid newbie; But the reaction is rather normal. Think about it for a minute, even you experienced divers, if I took you diving somewhere yu never been using protocols you'd never used or seen, say out in the middle of the Sargasso or under the ice at McMurdo would even you have a strong tendency to follow my lead and do what I told you?

Now let's take things in a completely different direction...

We've beat the subject of DM responsibilities almost to death in this thread. However if I was going to take an educated guess, I'd bet that there was NOT a DM on this dive. It's much more likely that this person was an OWSI (Open Water Scuba Instructor).

My reason for thinking this is that Cayman requires foriegners to have a work permit in order to seek employment. The cost of this permit is usually absorbed by the employer. Since a DM has limited usefulness in teaching, in my experience, most of the dive op employees are instructors and just perform "DM duties" to give the employer the most bang for the buck.

Many of the posters in this thread have shifted their viewpoint on who was responsibile in light of the continuing addition of new information. I'd be curious to see if their view point changes if it turns out that the DM was in actuality an OWSI.

He is an Instructor.

I don't see any difference at all in liability between a DM and OWI, however the "Just leading a tour" thing is a real problem.

For the past 2 days or 8 weeks depending on the class, the instructor and/or DM has been 100% responsible for everything that goes on underwater with the student. Assuming everybody was doing their job, there hasn't been a moment that some professional hasn't had a set of eyes on the student.

The next day when the boat goes out, there's no obvious indicator that anything has changed. Anybody who didn't know quite a bit about the SCUBA industry would assume the same conditions applied.

Terry

Yes. Furthermore: if the DM saw a diver in the group have a problem, would the DM not have a duty to attempt to assist? If that is the case then why does the DM not have a duty be sufficiently observant (especially of his least experienced and least capable charges) to see if a problem was developing. Having a diver wander off from the group during a problem solving dive in a DM or Instructor cause would be cause for failing that exercise and maybe even the course.

 

[Pre BC]

I have to admit this has been a very interesting thread to follow! Both major themes of this thread have been both interesting and informative. The discussion of late regarding the amount of trust new divers place in their first resort dive charter operators and how widely it is abused is absolutely right on target... My last trip the Blue Hole I was shocked to find out that there was a group of 8 divers on the boat that had been certified the day before... What in the world was the charter operator thinking? Day one as a certified diver and lets take you down to 130 feet... Talk about literally and figuratively getting in over your head!

Let's face it, this type of turning a blind eye to new diver safety persists only because none of the certifying agencies want to lose market share by being the first to enforce hard and fast experience requirements for advanced diving activities... whether it is deep, drift, wreck or otherwise. It is a classic case of all or none... If one agency enforces standards they lose customers. If they all do it at the same time on a voluntary basis, they are all equal until one bends the standard to gain an advantage... then it all crumbles. The only way to make it work is for the RSTC and NAUI to agree to a common mandatory set of depth versus certification standards. *** For any who don't know, the Recreational Scuba Training Council (RSTC) was incorporated in the United States in 1986 with the mission of establishing minimum training standards at all levels of recreational scuba diving. If I remember correctly, NAUI is the only major certification agency that is not a member. ***

Getting back to the very first post on this thread that accuses the Caymans of being unacceptably dangerous. There is a big difference between the number of deaths and the "death rate." More caucasian infants die every year in the US than minority infants... Does that mean that it is safer to be a minority infant? Absolutely not, their death rate is almost double (i.e. depths per 1,000 births). Does anyone know what how the death rate (deaths per 1,000 dives) for the Caymans compares to other dive destinations. Without that information, any discussion about the Caymans versus other resort destinations is pure conjecture. We can all come up with annecdotal horror stories about almost anywhere. If there really is something "more wrong" with the dive operations in the Cayman Islands than elsewhere, it will show up in "mortality and serious injury rates." The total number of deaths really does not mean anything. Remember, 9 deaths deaths out of 300,000 dives is actually twice as safe as 3 deaths out of 50,000 dives. Which brings us to one of my great grandfather's favorite sayings, "Never forget that statistics never lie and liars always use faulty statistics!

I look forward to seeing the next installments to this thread!

P

 

[GaryLee]

Just a quick note to say I am waiting to hear back from the Laboratory Services with regards to whether the autopsy report can be released and the appropriate protocols to be followed regarding this.

I'll keep the board updated.