Diver Death in Cayman

[fosterboxermom]

If you tell divers that they're diving with a "DiveMaster", that states outright that they are diving with a professional who is in control of the dive and is responsible for their safety.

The dictionary definition is:
Unfortunately, this is not what is provided here or at any other tropical location I've been to.

What needs to be "corrected" is that dive ops need to either stop sending DMs down and make everybody aware thet they're responsible for their own safety (this would be my preference), or send down enough well-trained staff to actually perform the services they say they're providing.

Selecting an appropriate dive site would also help a lot, although since we don't really know where the "wall" dive was or what the topography was like, it may turn out to have been a perfectly appropriate dive site.

Terry,

I don't believe now that it is over it was an appropriate dive site. Not for two new divers and a minor. Then there is the other fact that I voiced I wouldn't dive to 100ft. So he should have pick another dive site and I know you can be at another one that is shallower in minutes. I would bet that no one would have objected.

 

[InTheDrink]

I don't know. He could have embolised (sp) on his way up and that caused heart failure at the surface. Just speculation on my part.

This thread has taken many turns and here's the rub. As cold as it sounds, everything must be analyzed to the nth degree and that includes the actual cause of death and the time line.

I'm not ready to place blame anywhere. Just want to know all the facts, so the diving community can learn.

That is indeed the function of this thread I would hope. To find out if there's an issue and if so, how to prevent it in future. And the facts like you say are equally elusive, even to those present at the event.

But as Terry has said eloquently a number of times, the DM service either needs to improve to be what it claims to be, or be clear about what it's not, so no-one's under any false illusions.

Thx,
J

 

[CDNScubaMoose]

If you tell divers that they're diving with a "DiveMaster", that states outright that they are diving with a professional who is in control of the dive and is responsible for their safety.

Unfortunately, this is not what is provided here or at any other tropical location I've been to.

What needs to be "corrected" is that dive ops need to either stop sending DMs down and make everybody aware thet they're responsible for their own safety (this would be my preference), or send down enough well-trained staff to actually perform the services they say they're providing.

Selecting an appropriate dive site would also help a lot, although since we don't really know where the "wall" dive was or what the topography was like, it may turn out to have been a perfectly appropriate dive site.

Terry

I noticed in the definition there is nothing about a dive master assisting with training during instruction. Did you clip the definition or is that the complete listing? Next - is this the definition that the agencies are using? I'm trying to understand where divers are getting this type of thinking. If we as instructors should be promoting reliance on the dive master then I think we need to see that in writing. If on the other hand we shouldn't be promoting it then that too has to be clear. Since there is a serious difference in opinions on this then we should get it made clear to us.

No question from me on the appropriate dive site - a better description of the topography would be nice to know if we are dealing with the possibility that there was a loss of bouyancy or if it was case that he swam into trouble.

 

[Thalassamania]

It's not that complicated, when a neophyte dies in the company of an experienced practitioner who is being paid to be in the company of the neophyte, then that experienced practitioner's got, at a minimum, some serious explaining to do.

 

[fosterboxermom]

That is indeed the function of this thread I would hope. To find out if there's an issue and if so, how to prevent it in future. And the facts like you say are equally elusive, even to those present at the event.

But as Terry has said eloquently a number of times, the DM service either needs to improve to be what it claims to be, or be clear about what it's not, so no-one's under any false illusions.

Thx,
J

True, and I guess the best way to do that is to take a rescue course with your buddy. Make sure you know where the first aid kit is on the boat (make sure it isn't locked up) that it has an AED and 100 % o2, and and ambu bag and know how to use it. Know the call signal of the boat in case you have to use the radio and trust no one but yourself and hopefully your buddy. AND ABOVE ALL ELSE, TRAVELING OUTSIDE THE US GET MEDICAL-TRAVEL INSURANCE. It cost Pam $5000.00 alone just to get Brendan's remains home. This is how I am going to dive from now on. I have learned my lesson.

 

[CDNScubaMoose]

1. The DM made the choice AFTER he heard about what experience we had as divers.

2. I don't know the answers to those questions. Only Brendan knows. I can say that the DM did lead the group and I didn't see him look back at anytime until the middle of the dive when we were going to make our second left turn and that is when we discovered Brendan was missing. That is when he turned to me and asked "where's your buddy"?

3. I have mixed feelings about that issue. I know I am responsible for myself, however, I feel there is some responsibility that is placed on the DM or they wouldn't be given the training or some wouldn't be so strick on some dives I have done. Such as roll call and head counts, etc. We look to them as a figure of authority and respect as you would a teacher. I think as parents do teachers have some responsibility in keeping their children safe. I am not implying we are children. Please don't take this out of context. I am purely using it as an analogy.

1) Thanks for clarifying that

2) Vis was around 100' correct? Nobody saw this accident unfolding? Maybe assumed that although he was getting a little further away that it wasn't a big deal? I've been on mob dives before and when someone is going considerably deeper or wandering away from the group it is pretty obvious (at least for me) in good vis conditions to notice that developing.

3) I have emailed my PADI rep to ask for clarification on this issue. If and when I hear back I will update. The roll calls and head counts are, IMHO, to ensure that nobody gets left behind. The issue at hand here is u/w behavior of the DM and what is expected - should they be responsible for checking pressure's throughout the dive (I've always been told by DM's to let them know when I am at half a tank or something similar), likewise on how to keep the group together.

 

[rsldonk]

Terry,

I don't believe now that it is over it was an appropriate dive site. Not for two new divers and a minor. Then there is the other fact that I voiced I wouldn't dive to 100ft. So he should have pick another dive site and I know you can be at another one that is shallower in minutes. I would bet that no one would have objected.

I don't think anyone has disputed this fact at all. I think everyone does want to figure out what happened, but without the dive profile, it's very difficult. Also without knowing the COD, it's also difficult. Right now all anyone has is speculation. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the diver got narked at that depth and decided to chase a fish.

There was obviously a long line of mistakes, from training that didn't stress calling a dive when you aren't comfortable (can't really dispute this fact, if he certified with PADI, that fact is stressed all through the OW book and should be stressed by the instructor) to a dive master who really didn't care much other than to get his tips and disregarded more than one regulation and safety standard to the diver himself going through with the dive and also a number of other unknown factors that could easily have contributed. I understand why this information is not readily available, but at the same time, until it is, we will just keep going in circles beating a dead horse and speculating as to what really happened.

Does anyone have experience at this dive site that could talk about what the bottom looks like and what sort of conditions (especially currents and visiblity) are normal here?

 

[letterboy]

I won't call you an arse - I'll say that you are uneducated and possibly on the lazy side since if you were truely interested in understanding how to prevent this from reoccuring you would read the entire thread. If you pay attention you can see how the OP has evolved in her posts. There is no doubt that at the beginning she was hurt and needed to express herself. In a few short days she has provided a lot of insight into what occured. I still disagree with her on how much responsibility divers (new or old alike) should be placing on DM's but I respect that she has continued to try to answer our questions so that we might be able to improve the safety of diving for the future. If you can't offer anything constructive then why post other then to be at the center of attention?

uneducated, and why would you say that? oh and what if I am uneducated what does that mean? does that mean I can't have an opinion on something?

She may have provided a lot of insight, but saying things the way she has about having additional information that she is going to "sit on" while we bash our heads together seems kind of childish to me. but hey thats just me.

center of attention? I have not tried to be the center of attention, yet, I can if you would like.

BTW- Are you related to John Kerry or are you just french?

 

[CDNScubaMoose]

uneducated, and why would you say that? oh and what if I am uneducated what does that mean? does that mean I can't have an opinion on something?

She may have provided a lot of insight, but saying things the way she has about having additional information that she is going to "sit on" while we bash our heads together seems kind of childish to me. but hey thats just me.

center of attention? I have not tried to be the center of attention, yet, I can if you would like.

BTW- Are you related to John Kerry or are you just french?

If you are going to have an opinion then you might want to read the entire thread so you can see for yourself how her attitude has changed throughout it. If you did, you might recognize some symptoms of post traumatic stress that I would expect from someone that went through this situation. Hence, not having all the information concerning your opinion when it is easily available makes you uneducated about what you are attempting to discuss/

John Kerry comment - sorry over my head ... did I make some spelling mistakes again? Or is there something else you were referring to?

because they are allowed to finish a course that basically tells them dont worry someone will be able to take care of you, the DM will be there to help you no matter what. . .

Is this the case here? Did his original instructor allow him to think this? If this is the case then IMHO, this needs to be corrected ASAP.

 

[letterboy]

If you are going to have an opinion then you might want to read the entire thread so you can see for yourself how her attitude has changed throughout it. If you did, you might recognize some symptoms of post traumatic stress that I would expect from someone that went through this situation. Hence, not having all the information concerning your opinion when it is easily available makes you uneducated about what you are attempting to discuss/

John Kerry comment - sorry over my head ... did I make some spelling mistakes again? Or is there something else you were referring to?

So everyone who has posted an opinion has read every post in this thread? wow, I do apologize I didn't realize that I was among such upstanding Scubaboarders.

Well if you are so good at diagnosing PTSD have you recommended she go see someone, (Priest, Rabbi, therapist, anyone but SB) if she does have PTSD that is not something to mess around with. seriously.

John Kerry comment - Sarcasm, bad American humor . . .

Is this the case here? Did his original instructor allow him to think this?

This was in response to your post, should have highlighted it for everyone to see "how are divers getting the idea that they are scuba tourists instead of actual divers" that it is because when divers are certified they are not given all the tools to succeed. But alas as that is a topic for a different thread, I digress.