Diver Death in Cayman

[Thalassamania]

Jim. It's horrible to say. But I think you're unlikely to ever make that fifth PADI star.

 

[tridacna]

PADI listens to no one especially independent instructors. I will not affiliate with a shop and will not push gear or courses that students don't need, want, or can't afford. Right now I am forbidden to put anything before the students best interests, needs, or means when it comes to advising on equipment.

Do you honestly think they would change their entire business model, forego profits, and go back to the way the program was orignally set up which was not much different than the old Y program? That is the only way I could teach for them. And they would have to get rid of the elearning, require a minimum of 32 hours of instruction, teach all the things that I do now, and charge independent instructors the same as they do the so-called 5 star, gold palm, platinum platypus, or whatever the same price for materials.

Like my agency does now. I pay the same price and make the same profits on materials buying enough for 4 students at a time as one that buys for 25 at a time. That is an agency that treats all it's instructors fairly. For me to switch they would have to allow me to teach to the standards I do now and require all instructors to do so or higher. They would have to stop encouraging ridiculous specialties. They would have to put all major standard's changes before the membership. They would have to stop telling people to take one course after another with no time to put into practice what was just learned. They would have to fully support independents and put us on equal footing with the biggest of their customers. In short when pigs fly I would crossover. I don't want to put lots of divers in the water. I want to put divers in the water who are FULLY qualified to be in the water from day one like I do now. There are divers in the water who have no business being near water let alone in it on scuba and PADI has been at the forefront of seeing to that. No thanks I would not fight them and they would soon censor or throw me out anyway because as long as there were things wrong I would be more vocal about it than I am now to even more people.

Allow me to summarise what I've learned on this thread:

If I had to choose an instructor to teach my kids, Jim is the guy. I wish that he was closer!

 

[GaryLee]

Allow me to summarise what I've learned on this thread:

If I had to choose an instructor to teach my kids, Jim is the guy. I wish that he was closer!

Good for you.
You aren't recognised as a certification by nearly all dive centres and therefore not insured or able to hir kit and dive,
but someone needs to stick up for the little man.

I tried and he wasn't interested.

 

[pilot fish]

Getting back to this fatality. Did the Dive Op in Cayman present the person on the dive boat as DM? YES! Was he presented to the signed up divers as ONLY a Guide? NO. Those are the sworn statements of the Op in this thread and what she says the other people were told too.

Questions:
Is that misleading?
Would the deceased have dove to 100 ft with a person that was ONLY a dive guide?
Woud the deceased, a brand new diver, have even dove with only a dive guide?
What are the functions of a DM on a dive boat versus a Dive guide on a dive boat?
Should this Dive Op have made that clear?
And here is the BIG question: what are the duties of a Dive Master on a dive boat, vis a vis a brand new diver? Does the term Dive Master convey a certain extra level of security to the new divers?

 

[Web Monkey]

Good for you.
You aren't recognised as a certification by nearly all dive centres and therefore not insured or able to hir kit and dive,
but someone needs to stick up for the little man.

Considering that this thread is about a dead PADI diver, the PADI shop that didn't train him well enough, another PADI shop that couldn't figure out that 2 dives and an OW card != a 100' wall dive and the PADI DM that couldn't figure it out either, I would think you wouldn't be so quick to take pot-shots at an organization that apparently does a much better job of training good divers and instructors than PADI does.

Also, in any case, you're wrong on all points. DAN does insure SEI members and any shop with a phone, internet connection or 12' of water for a skills demo will rent equipment to an SEI diver.

Terry

 

[pilot fish]

How does one express a concept except in words?

Exactly, thal! If you cannot convey the concept of anything with words and pictures, then it is just an idea that will die of loneliness in the mind of one person. We only learn when an idea, concept, is SHARED and you cannot share it without words.

What use are words when their definition is not agreed to?

As useful as sand in the desert

Truth!

Elusive as it may be.

 

[pilot fish]

Let us not lose sight of that. Thank you, Web, for reminding the thread. Was this brand new diver mislead as to the status /rating of whom was going to lead his dive and was he put in peril because of it? How can this be prevented in the future? The dive industry seem to be rife with this DM v. DG misconception :depressed:

Considering that this thread is about a dead PADI diver, the PADI shop that didn't train him well enough, another PADI shop that couldn't figure out that 2 dives and an OW card != a 100' wall dive and the PADI DM that couldn't figure it out either, I would think you wouldn't be so quick to take pot-shots at an organization that apparently does a much better job of training good divers and instructors than PADI does.

Also, in any case, you're wrong on all points. DAN does insure SEI members and any shop with a phone, internet connection or 12' of water for a skills demo will rent equipment to an SEI diver.

Terry

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Getting back to this fatality. Did the Dive Op in Cayman present the person on the dive boat as DM? YES! Was he presented to the signed up divers as ONLY as Guide? NO. Those are the sworn statements of the Op in this thread and what she says the other people were told too.

Questions:
Is that misleading?
Would the deceased have dove to 100 ft with a person that was ONLY a dive guide
Woud the deceased, a brand new diver, have even dove with only a dive guide?
What are the functions of a DM on a dive boat versus a Dive guide on a dive boat?
Should this Dive Op have made that clear?
And here is the BIG question: what are the duties of a Dive Master on a dive boat, vis a vis a brand new diver? Does the term Dive Master convey a certain extra level of security to the new divers?

PF could you provide me a link to the sworn statements? As to your questions and I will try to answer them as a new diver trained under what seem to be typical conditions we see today in the industry.

1 It very well could be if it was not impressed on the diver just what his limits are, why they are there, and what he/she should do when the situation occurs. ( Goes back to the original instructor

2 Perhaps if they were not taught the difference between a guide and a DM. ( back to the beginning again

3 As a certified diver he was probably told that he should dive with a buddy at all times. Did he even know what a buddy really is and what their responsibilities are to each other? If that was not totally clear he may have figured a guide was the same thing. ( WOW back to initial training again)

4 A DM is there to give the site briefing, assist with gear if required( he better not touch mine), keep track of the divers getting in and out if the water, assign buddy pairs if required, if staying on the boat watch for bubbles, if in the water he/she may be leading the group or following, may point out points of interest, keep track of the group as a whole but should not be expected to be anyone's dedicated buddy unless arrangements have been made before hand, will generally keep track on what they percive to be the weakest or most inexperienced diver( this was difficult with a minor, two new divers, two divers at different depths, and we do not know what the Dm was doing or with who when the deceased got seperated. He did check on the two at shallower depths perhaps indicating he believed the deceased was with them and in that case where was the 16 yr old and with whom?, If he was watching the 16 yr old and the man was tagging along you had a three man team not used to diving together of various levels with poor communication. It's a wonder there was only one fatality.)

He would also if leading turn the dive when the first person reached the agreed upon point if going by air, or time, or distance. He would then be sure all divers were ascending as agreed upon, and be sure everyone got back on the boat.

A guide may not be a DM and would simply be there to point out things.

5 It depends on the region and what the op provides and what the guests ask for. In Bonaire we had a DM who many times ended up being little more than another person in the water. Of course when you have 3 instructors, a couple DM's, several divers with tech certs, and other who had done a Galapagos trip a few months earlier, along with some other divers who have been diving along time. the DM tends to just get in the way and would have to be real lucky to get everyone to listen to him. But yes the op should distinguish and if they don't the divers should know to ask( again back to the beginning of training- Damn how that works)

6. That depends really on what the divers ask of him in such a mixed group. In this case I don't think any of them had any business diving like this. 2 people somewhat experienced but not comfortable in the water. 2 new divers who should not have been in this situation in the first place but did not have the training to know that.

And as I look back something something stirkes me as very wrong with this story. (I'm watching CSI now so I'm in that mode) the OP indicated 5 divers plus the DM on the boat, now that leaves her, the fiance, the deceased, the kid, and ????- Who and where was ????
Was the DM watching the kid and ???? or did he think that the deceased as with ???? or with the 2 women. When he found out he was not with the 2 women did he figure he was with ???? and then continue the dive. And just how long were they down at 100 feet? Not long I'm guessing so did he assume the deceased went up to be with the women when he was not with ???? ? And what did ???? say or do? no mention of this. This was a cluster from the get go and no one should have been on this dive save maybe the DM and ????. Maybe the kid as well if he was with the DM. My tendency would be to look after the kid but that's because I have some and would guess that even though the guy was new he was ok with this dive or he would not be on the boat. But then again I would not have taken any of these people out deeper than 30 or 40 feet.

 

[Riger]

Where is this new term, DG, and its designation, in the PADI manual I can't find it. If a Dive Operation offers the newbie divers on a dive boat a DM but the person that leads teh dive is in fact just a Dive Guide, is that fraud? Does a DM convey an extra measure of security to the newbie diver?

The question for me is this.. In this case, would the deceased diver have acted any differently had he known the true qualifications of the DM/DG on the boat?

In truth you and I cannot say with any confidence one way or another as we were not there, however we know from the OP's eyewitness account that he had stated that he wanted to go to 100' to see what it was like. This apparently after numerous objections directed at the DM/DG from an experienced diver (OP) in the group as to the novice status of some divers (including the deceased) on the boat.

Blame aside (seriously), don't you wonder what actually happened to this poor soul that caused him to end up out of his depth (so to speak)? It seems that almost without exception, 95% of the posts on this thread are either trying to lay blame or trying to cover arse. - I guess that is why the Mod demoted this to the bowels of the boat, an insightful move obviously.

Best Regards
Richard

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Considering that this thread is about a dead PADI diver, the PADI shop that didn't train him well enough, another PADI shop that couldn't figure out that 2 dives and an OW card != a 100' wall dive and the PADI DM that couldn't figure it out either, I would think you wouldn't be so quick to take pot-shots at an organization that apparently does a much better job of training good divers and instructors than PADI does.

Also, in any case, you're wrong on all points. DAN does insure SEI members and any shop with a phone, internet connection or 12' of water for a skills demo will rent equipment to an SEI diver.

Terry

Thanks Terry.

In fact I have DAN pro level insurance as well as my personal liablility policy. And I could always pull out my NAUI Helitrox, or Intro to tech card, or if need be my no longer valid PADI DM card, which they wouldn't check anyway if my US Airways Mastercard was in the same hand, along with the OW, AOW, NITROX, yada yada yada. Or maybe my SEI Ice cert would work or my YMCA Assistant Instructor card or the YMCA Silver Instructor card. But I bet my SEI instructor card would work just fine:cool2:
And as for the verification I may not be able to verify individual OW divers but I can tell you if their instructor is current and in fact am the one who would do so for the Instructor to Instructor forum here on SB.