I would like you to show me a competent diver who lacks the confidence to dive without an instructor. Maybe they're not as competent as they should be.
"relatively neutrally buoyany" that's a good one.
DiveMaster/LDS conflict
- Thread starter jepuskar
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I would like you to show me a competent diver who lacks the confidence to dive without an instructor. Maybe they're not as competent as they should be.
"relatively neutrally buoyany" that's a good one.
I have to venture the guess here that the student comfort with gear configuration sounds more like your ruse in retrospect as well, it's considered superior in some circles to have the students experience as many different configurations as possible. This helps to drill home the lesson that it's up to the student (when making those buddy dives) to know how their buddy's gear goes together and where to look when they need air, or need to remove the gear of the buddy should either of those conditions surface.
Hey Jep- That's no slight to you intended above, that was for chicago's narrative of you man.
Hey Jep- That's no slight to you intended above, that was for chicago's narrative of you man.
Was the problem with the student divers not being comfortable with the long hose arrangement possibly due to how it was presented? The words tech, trimix, deco need not enter into the discussion at all. It's simply another way to donate in an OOA situation, which applies to any type of diving.
It's funny how some students react, though. He does have a point that they can be initially uncomfortable (afterall they've never seen anything like it before) but that goes away almost immediately if you take the time to show it to them and talk about it.
I wear double first stages and a longhose/bungie-octo during the OW dives too. When I took my DM training we actually took the time to do some scenarios (other DM's playing students) specifically about how to answer questions from OW students about my rig and it was a good thing too because I probably would have had trouble dealing with the questions initially. This is the problem that Jason and his instructor are having. They haven't worked on a good answer to the questions yet. (I mean aside from the breakdown in trust that is....)
When asked about the long hose I just answer that I borrowed the idea from cave divers and I use it because I find it more comfortable with my drysuit. OW students don't understand diving in caves and they don't have experience with drysuits or long hoses for the most part and to date every single one of them accepts this answer. "More comfortable" is something everyone can relate to and it's not intimiating like saying "safer" "better" "easier" "TECH" "Do it RIGHT" or whatever.
The dual 1sts are harder to explain. The real reason I have it is to spread the load because I dive in freezing water in the winter and I don't want freeflows (or when I get one I want to be able to turn off the reg). This is hard to explain openly without making (some) students afraid of freeflows. Or raising doubts about their "normal" configuration.
I explain away the dual first stages with a combination of white lies -- "I borrowed that from cave divers too but actually it's over-kill and you don't need it".... (come to think of it this might be the truth...
)joking "this is Peter's (the instructor's) reg and he's always forgetting it so I carry it for him" or "I breathe heavily and I need two"
and deflection "oh, that's just part of the package ....SOOO let's take a look and see if you're all ready to go......"
(if anyone has a better idea, let's hear it)
Sure, if you don't explain it to them or you talk about "risks" and act all "macho" then it will make some students uncomfortable. But if you're not secretive or "macho" about then they only ask once, they accept the answer and by the second dive they're used to seeing it and it quickly becomes normal to them.
For example. Jason could explain his entire DIR kit by saying what 'CD in Chigago" said. "I bought it 'cause it looks cool". (hey! just thought of another way to explain my 1st stages...) Easy to understand. Everyone knows about fashion statements. There's nothing intimidating about that and if you add a joke to that like "Even under water you gotta dress for success" or whatever then they'll just accept the answer and move on. It's all about giving them a handle to understand it without the focus on "risk" or talking about intimidating things like "tech" diving or using words like "better" ....
R..
I think the point here is a fairly simple one. cd in chicago is in charge of his shop. Jason asked to help, cd in chicago said Jason should wear the gear Jason already has (they both already said Jason has this gear), Jason prefers to wear another set of gear. cd in chicago says that's fine, but you can't wear it when helping the students.
I don't see what's wrong here. Many schools/classes having to do with life support (CPR classes, scuba, flight) stick with standards. If this school wants to have students and teachers using the same gear to prevent confusion, I don't see why this is a bad thing, it's certainly their choice if they believe it's better for teaching, and better for keeping their store in business. I know when taking flight lessons the school didn't flip me between planes, I was taught on one plane for quite awhile and was fairly advanced before moving to others.
Many dive shops have closed down, either due to bad business practices, or due to the drop in shop sales because of online shops taking a lot of the profit.
If you have this massive cattle herd you're talking about (I don't see anything wrong with teaching cattle herds if you have the teachers available), you certainly are going to have a few people who are very uncomfortable in the water, very new to the ideas, and are going to have trouble. If I'm designing a program and I'm aiming to make these scared cattle a little more comfortable, I'm certainly going to say "Ok, everyone is going to wear the same setup". I think that's reasonable. I am one of those who believes that almost anyone should be able to dive with some training. Train as many as you can, go for it.. just make sure they're well trained by the time you hand them a c-card.
cd in chicago didn't say the setup was bad, I believe he was saying that the setup wasn't appropriate for teaching his OW students.. once again, his shop, his choice. Jason was volunteering, and already had the gear.
Of course you can disagree with the idea of diveshops using their DM's as billboards, but I don't see a problem with it, if it keeps my diveshop open to do my airfills.
I don't see what's wrong here. Many schools/classes having to do with life support (CPR classes, scuba, flight) stick with standards. If this school wants to have students and teachers using the same gear to prevent confusion, I don't see why this is a bad thing, it's certainly their choice if they believe it's better for teaching, and better for keeping their store in business. I know when taking flight lessons the school didn't flip me between planes, I was taught on one plane for quite awhile and was fairly advanced before moving to others.
Many dive shops have closed down, either due to bad business practices, or due to the drop in shop sales because of online shops taking a lot of the profit.
If you have this massive cattle herd you're talking about (I don't see anything wrong with teaching cattle herds if you have the teachers available), you certainly are going to have a few people who are very uncomfortable in the water, very new to the ideas, and are going to have trouble. If I'm designing a program and I'm aiming to make these scared cattle a little more comfortable, I'm certainly going to say "Ok, everyone is going to wear the same setup". I think that's reasonable. I am one of those who believes that almost anyone should be able to dive with some training. Train as many as you can, go for it.. just make sure they're well trained by the time you hand them a c-card.
cd in chicago didn't say the setup was bad, I believe he was saying that the setup wasn't appropriate for teaching his OW students.. once again, his shop, his choice. Jason was volunteering, and already had the gear.
Of course you can disagree with the idea of diveshops using their DM's as billboards, but I don't see a problem with it, if it keeps my diveshop open to do my airfills.
.... the part where the shop sold him a nice expensive class so he could help out.
If they did not make clear before taking his money what their rules were, then they talked him into taking that class under perhaps false pretense and certainly under less-than-honest disclosure of the to-be-imposed "rules".
In continuing the Jason Saga, he had made mention of his girlfriend becoming certified and the Instructor kept pushing Advanced Open Water ..... well, I'm the Instructor who certified his girlfriend. She was great - very enthusiastic and excited about learning. Yes, I encouraged her to continue her education and experience as with any sport or activity, the more knowledge you gain, the better you become at it. I'm very happy to see is that she is continuing to dive. I don't feel she should be discouraged furthering her education though. The money made by an Instructor is minimal compared to the satisfaction of sharing knowledge with a student and watching them grow.
A Certification Card does have meaning as long as the knowledge and skills learned with that card are applied.
Whether it be PADI, NAUI, SSI or any other agency, a foundation has been created to make diving what it is today. This educational foundation has created guidelines for safe diving practices allowing the sport to be enjoyed by many. Continuing education is very important but also equally important if not more is applying the knowledge and skills learned through diving experience.
Many new divers do not have buddies to start their experience and diving through instruction may be their only alternative as they gain confidence and along the way meet new friends/buddies.
I feel continuing on with AOW enhances their diving abilities in addition to knowledge. Jason's GF is fortunate for having a dive buddy to encourage her. Discouraging her for his own reasons I feel are selfish.
This is not intended to bash anyone as everyone is entitled to their own opinion. This is mine and professionally speaking I again reiterate the importance of continuing education.
A Certification Card does have meaning as long as the knowledge and skills learned with that card are applied.
Whether it be PADI, NAUI, SSI or any other agency, a foundation has been created to make diving what it is today. This educational foundation has created guidelines for safe diving practices allowing the sport to be enjoyed by many. Continuing education is very important but also equally important if not more is applying the knowledge and skills learned through diving experience.
Many new divers do not have buddies to start their experience and diving through instruction may be their only alternative as they gain confidence and along the way meet new friends/buddies.
I feel continuing on with AOW enhances their diving abilities in addition to knowledge. Jason's GF is fortunate for having a dive buddy to encourage her. Discouraging her for his own reasons I feel are selfish.
This is not intended to bash anyone as everyone is entitled to their own opinion. This is mine and professionally speaking I again reiterate the importance of continuing education.
My own BOW class was decent. I learned what I needed to know, but a number of things that I didn't recognize as important (because I simply didn't know - where we all start!) weren't emphasized.
My AOW class was excellent. The instructor who taught it really knew how to dive. She set an example that gave us a target to shoot for, and it was obvious just seeing her in the water.
But that doesn't mean that anyone else's classes will be likewise excellent. In fact, many of them bite. I know, 'cause I've seen a few that did.
To claim that someone is "selfish" for encouraging someone to get out and dive (more) rather than take another class is more than a bit self-serving.
If the OW class was good, that person has a grasp of all of the fundamentals - a good grasp. AOW is then a skill builder, not an experience builder.
If the OW class bit, then AOW may cure that, but the real problem is that the student paid for something they didn't get. In that case the selfishness is on the instructor and/or shop who cut the original certification.
Heh, now we're onto the old "why would you need a class to teach you that stuff, when you can learn it on your own/with a friend".
I know a lot about programming. I can teach someone how to program just fine. However, if someone is interested in writing very good code, I would suggest they take classes/go to college. Why?
College doesn't necessarily just teach how to program, they teach the steps, the reasons, the way to learn, the "proper" forms. There are plenty of people who can hack out code and do ok, but when you're in a professional industry it's very obvious who has a proper education and who does not.
In the same way, there are plenty of people who have hundreds of dives under their belts, but still could benefit from further training, and also who should not be teaching. I want to teach my family how to scuba dive, but I certainly wouldn't do that before I was rated as an instructor. There's a large gap between doing it correctly on your own, and teaching it.
In that manner, I personally believe that someone who wishes to learn to scuba dive should take professional classes (YMCA, PADI, SSI, etc). That's where I would have the problem with someone teaching their friends, if they possibly do not know the correct teaching methods. You most likely will be just fine, but if you're not trained to teach, you shouldn't be teaching. I may help someone with programming once in awhile, but they won't die if I miss something important.
I know a lot about programming. I can teach someone how to program just fine. However, if someone is interested in writing very good code, I would suggest they take classes/go to college. Why?
College doesn't necessarily just teach how to program, they teach the steps, the reasons, the way to learn, the "proper" forms. There are plenty of people who can hack out code and do ok, but when you're in a professional industry it's very obvious who has a proper education and who does not.
In the same way, there are plenty of people who have hundreds of dives under their belts, but still could benefit from further training, and also who should not be teaching. I want to teach my family how to scuba dive, but I certainly wouldn't do that before I was rated as an instructor. There's a large gap between doing it correctly on your own, and teaching it.
In that manner, I personally believe that someone who wishes to learn to scuba dive should take professional classes (YMCA, PADI, SSI, etc). That's where I would have the problem with someone teaching their friends, if they possibly do not know the correct teaching methods. You most likely will be just fine, but if you're not trained to teach, you shouldn't be teaching. I may help someone with programming once in awhile, but they won't die if I miss something important.
On the other hand, of course once you're OW certified, it's great to have a buddy to get out with and get practice with. I just think there's a big difference between getting experience & teaching.
If I'm out with a buddy in the quarry, I'm tooling around, looking at fish. I do not plan on teaching my buddy anything he does not already know, and the most instruction I might give is "You might not want to swim with your hands so much". Beyond that I think is getting into the realms of teaching, where in my mind it should be left to the instructors.
So if it's just getting experience and having fun, go for it. I wish I had a buddy to swim full time
If I'm out with a buddy in the quarry, I'm tooling around, looking at fish. I do not plan on teaching my buddy anything he does not already know, and the most instruction I might give is "You might not want to swim with your hands so much". Beyond that I think is getting into the realms of teaching, where in my mind it should be left to the instructors.
So if it's just getting experience and having fun, go for it. I wish I had a buddy to swim full time
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