DiveMaster/LDS conflict

[Jonathan]

Jason ambushed himself....

 

[Diver0001]

Genesis once bubbled...


<snip>

To claim that someone is "selfish" for encouraging someone to get out and dive (more) rather than take another class is more than a bit self-serving.

You're being cynical, as usual. It wouldn't matter what they said you'd find a way to make the shop the bad guy.

Would it help if they said that they wanted to sell an AOW course and they expected Jason as a representative of the shop to assist with the sale? This could very well have been the case and it's certainly what your cynicism made of it, but it could also be the case that what they said was just sincere.

If the OW class was good, that person has a grasp of all of the fundamentals - a good grasp. AOW is then a skill builder, not an experience builder.

Sure it is. AOW is both things. A skills builder AND an experience builder. This shop obviously puts it's emphasis on experience but how does that preclude learning the material?

You know what cracks me up about you, Genesis? You have the biggest and most judgemental mouth on this entire forum about training but you have made no effort to becaome a dive-educator and you have ZERO experience with the things you like to think you're such an expert in.

I would challenge you to train ONE random stranger to scuba dive. It would do you a world of good to get that monkey off your back.

If the OW class bit, then AOW may cure that, but the real problem is that the student paid for something they didn't get. In that case the selfishness is on the instructor and/or shop who cut the original certification.

Well, I acutally agree with you about this but it's irrelevant and off topic becasue that's not what's being discussed here. How can you conclude that thier OW course sucks because they encourage students to go through AOW for more experience under supervision? That's just WHAT they do but you're filling in the WHY from some deeply cynical place.

Our club strongly encourages newly certified divers to take a series of guided dives with a DM after certification. Is it because our OW bites? Your cynicism would preclude just about any other conclusion but in fact we do this to get them out diving, to meet new buddies, for the comfort factor, to introduce them to new places to dive, for the experience, for the fun and, yes, to get them interested in doing AOW. Do you know how many divers would stop after OW if we didn't do that? Even for the simple lack of a buddy?

The shop in Chigago is obviously using AOW the way we use guided diving. Maybe they don't have dozens of DM's running around for guided diving, maybe they have other reasons, but I'm not going to fill in the WHY for them. Why don't you try that. Listen *first*, understand *first* and then talk.

R..

 

[El Orans]

Diver0001 once bubbled...
Our club strongly encourages newly certified divers to take a series of guided dives with a DM after certification.

My club doesn't just encourage you to dive with a DM for the first few dives you do with them, it is mandatory.

 

[Genesis]

I know a lot about programming. I can teach someone how to program just fine. However, if someone is interested in writing very good code, I would suggest they take classes/go to college. Why?

College doesn't necessarily just teach how to program, they teach the steps, the reasons, the way to learn, the "proper" forms. There are plenty of people who can hack out code and do ok, but when you're in a professional industry it's very obvious who has a proper education and who does not.

That's a pretty funny claim, considering what I've done with my life professionally.

Let's see...... I knew how to program the pins off the Zilog line of microprocessors (in assembler, no less) long before I went to college. I was writing and modifying business software for a number of bizarre proprietary processors (including some really strange Burroughs stuff) in High School.

Two years into it, I quit. Why? Because the university didn't like me following all their rules, but not their intent - which was to force me into a track I had no interest in being on.

When I got to the point that I was selling more code (in dollars) than I was spending on education, it became clear to me that there was no further point in a formal education.

I taught myself how to program in BASIC (first), Z-80 assembler, Macro-10 (PDP-10 - big iron), MACRO-11 (PDP-11 - its little brother), FORTRAN, Pascal, RPG, COBOL and then "C". I taught myself how networks work, how to code in a network environment, and how to build large - national and bigger - IP networks.

I then proceeded to go out and get a job doing exactly that. Its a good bet that somewhere between production and your TV set, if you watch a TV program that comes through a satellite feed, the signal is controlled by or passes through an amplifier, waveguide switch or antenna controlled by a piece of (networked) software that I wrote. The entire VideOcart system (the company unfortunately took a dirt nap - great technology, horrible business management) was built on a transport, distribution and network platform that I was central in the design and development of (I was the project manager of the group that did that part of the code; everything up to the cart software itself); no I didn't write all of it, as I had a bunch of guys working for me, but a fair bit of the critical code was personally written by me.

In my career of working for others I have personally gotten two "PhDs" fired. Both for being book-smart and reality-stupid, resulting in massive cost overruns that were completely avoidable (and which I predicted in advance.) I also had to let many people go when I worked for others in management roles, all of them with formal degrees that were not worth the paper they were printed on.

When I ran my own company, if you came in for an interview claiming all kinds of programming education I was not all that impressed. Now if you came in and could show me that you could actually DO IT, that was impressive.

I would never suggest that someone go to college to learn how to program, because in my experience if you're any good you are so far ahead of the class that you get in trouble with the Dean; in fact, in many cases you know more than the claimed "professor" who is teaching the class. In that case being there actually holds you back.

I never had to fire someone who learned on their own due to lack of ability.

I had to fire many people over my 20 year professional career who tried to substitute claimed (and even documented) education for ability.

One of the highlights of my professional life was sending a friend of mine in to my old Dean's office (who was now vice-Provost) of my former university with one of my busniess cards when I ran my company - a multimillion dollar a year business. This was the man who told me that "I'd never amount to anything" for leaving the college, because I "couldn't finish what I started."

She should have brought a video camera from the report I got back from her later; she said he nearly had a coronary on the spot.

Just desserts.

 

[Barro]

This entire discussion started with a premise that was only partly true: that a DM was prevented from helping out with students because he didn't buy his equipment from the store he was working with. In actuality, that was a reason but not the only reason.

Your Local Dive Shop is a business like any other. If you have a favorite pizza place and you don't support it.... no more good pizza. So, is there any confusion why they don't let you eat their competitor's food when in open sight of customers?

But that is not the main issue. I think many of us are forgetting our open water training and how new it felt. Scuba Diving is not an extreme sport, but it does involve some fundamental life sustaining education. Reasonable minds can differ on equipment considerations when diving recreationally. On the other hand, when you are helping with students in their first open water experience (or in advanced classes where they are there to learn specific skills) the last thing they need is confusion on equipment. You say that all that is required is a little additional briefing on the different equipment configuration. Okay, so now we need to add another 5 minutes to our briefings because one of our assistants wants to wear "his preferred equipment" that makes him comfortable. To be blunt, you said you wanted to come out and help, so YOUR COMFORT IS NOT THE PARAMOUNT CONCERN. My students are SAFER and LESS CONFUSED by having all dive professionals having similar configurations and THE SAME CONFIGURATION THEY WERE TAUGHT IN THE POOL.

Incidentally, that goes for Air2 systems as much as tec systems, so this is not an anti-tec issue. Someone said, "There are lot of different equipment configurations out there, so you might as well educate students on them right from the beginning". Okay, so when you go to file your taxes next year have your accountant teach you about all the tax laws, not just the one's that apply to your return, because some day you may run into them. At the end of that conversation give me a call and let me know how much you remember about your return. THEY HAVE ENOUGH TO REMEMBER RIGHT NOW. Let's try not to overload them when they have fundamental education going on.


Also, when we promote continuing education classes that is our attempt to get divers out and diving more, not just take money out of their pockets. There is a benefit of having a professional diver next to you when completing advanced dives. That professional can notice nuances and small problems that a dive buddy might not. I am confident that this student's instructor did not say "don't just go diving with Jason, take this class with me". I am positive that this was presented as "go have some fun diving, but advanced open water has some real benefits so give it some thought".

Lastly, the shop we are talking about has instructors at the dive site long after open water is over offering to go fun-diving with newly certified students whether they sign up for the advanced class or not.

 

[Atticus]

When I DM a class I encourage the students to take the AOW class. I also give every student my phone number and tell them to call me anytime they want a buddy for a dive.

My *opinion* is that the OW class is a little short on supervised dive time and that OW + AOW makes a reasonable intro to diving. I just wish AOW would be renamed to OW2.

When friends of mine (in other states) have gotten into diving I've suggested that they sign up for OW and AOW from the get go.

Genesis - I'm sorry, but I don't see your point about selling AOW classes.

 

[Genesis]

My *opinion* is that the OW class is a little short on supervised dive time and that OW + AOW makes a reasonable intro to diving. I just wish AOW would be renamed to OW2.

does not provide an appropriate education to meet the criteria under which it is sold, the solution is to fix that problem.

Otherwise, you're selling something you are not, in truth, delivering - the ability to dive unsupervised in reasonable safety.

This is exactly like advertising a $100 OW class and then after you have their money, on the second day of class, announcing (without previous disclosure) that the student must buy $250 worth of additional goods and services to actually PASS the class.

Deliver what you are selling and the problem goes away.

 

[Atticus]

Ok, when you put it that way

I think what you are suggesting is that when PADI created the OW class and opened up dive training to more people by setting the bar where they did they became guilty of some amount of false advertising. Personally I'd prefer to save that accusation for more damning circumstances.

I'd say that the OW class certifies students to dive with a buddy in certain (ideal) conditions. My suggestion to take AOW is to broaden the students horizon/experience level so that they can handle the common, less than idea conditions.

Perhaps an example is in order - my girlfriend received her OW certification about four years ago. We did a couple of lake dives together, then went to Monterey where she proceeded to get rolled in the surf and have a miserable time. We went back to the lake where she got more experience. Now when we go to Monterey she does just fine. In her case more experience included an AOW class. It gave her an opportunity to ask lots of new questions, and to gain some more confidence.

I don't see a problem with having multiple classes, as long as the shop is clear what they are selling (ie: the OW class will teach you to dive to 60' depth in good conditions with a buddy). This is also spelled out in the PADI OW handbook.

This is somewhat off topic however - I was enjoying the discourse between Jason and his instructors.

 

[Genesis]

I think what you are suggesting is that when PADI created the OW class and opened up dive training to more people by setting the bar where they did they became guilty of some amount of false advertising. Personally I'd prefer to save that accusation for more damning circumstances.

I'd say that the OW class certifies students to dive with a buddy in certain (ideal) conditions. My suggestion to take AOW is to broaden the students horizon/experience level so that they can handle the common, less than idea conditions.

If you were certified in 30' crystal-clear water, then yes, you're correct.

If your final certification dives were to 59.9999' in 5' vis, cold water, then your certification should be good for diving in those conditions.

If its not, then you were sold a bill of goods.

Its not a matter of what PADI represented, or anyone else for that matter. ALL of the agencies call OW training suitable for non-professionally-accompanied diving in conditions at least as good as those under which your training was conducted.

As proof of this all of these agencies also offer "resort" courses which do not lead to such, and which give you the skills necessary to dive ONLY when under professional supervision.

I've yet to see an agency's advertising that states that you are not qualified to dive without professional accompanyment following completion of the OW class.

Again, simply deliver what you promise, and the problem goes away.

 

[Diver0001]

Barro once bubbled...
<snip>

Okay, so when you go to file your taxes next year have your accountant teach you about all the tax laws, not just the one's that apply to your return, because some day you may run into them. At the end of that conversation give me a call and let me know how much you remember about your return. THEY HAVE ENOUGH TO REMEMBER RIGHT NOW. Let's try not to overload them when they have fundamental education going on.

This is brilliant. I hope you don't mind if I borrow it.

R..