DiveMaster/LDS conflict

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Atticus once bubbled...
When I DM a class I encourage the students to take the AOW class. I also give every student my phone number and tell them to call me anytime they want a buddy for a dive.

My *opinion* is that the OW class is a little short on supervised dive time and that OW + AOW makes a reasonable intro to diving. I just wish AOW would be renamed to OW2.

<snip>

I'm with you on this one. OW + AOW is the basic set of skills you need to start with. There is room to rename AOW as OW2 (which is really what it is anyway) and add a "water skills" (advanced buoyancy, navigation, kicks, gas management etc) course in between "OW2" and rescue. This would probably increase sales of OW2 (afterall, who wants 1/2 of something). In exchange you would sacrifice two specialties for this but you could work it out with the pricing and give instructors a chance to focus on watre skills before students go too far and perfect too many bad habits.

I like this idea.

R..
 
A few years back NAUI taught OW1 and OW2. They made for a natural progression, then again they had a Spor Diver cert that was 10 OW dives... I don't remember it being so much about money back then, a lot more of the classes wanted theinformation, not just the card. Different generation maybe...
 
cd in chicago once bubbled...
I guess it's time to set the record straight.
I am the instructor that jepuskar is talking about. And yes I did ask Jason to wear his less than 1 yr "old" equipment. The reason I gave him was that we wanted the students to see our leadership people in equipment that we sell. This is true; it keeps our dive center in business so we can teach classes and fill air tanks- things the internet cannot do.
As he admits, he did use his new gear a couple of times with the students. Here's what he did not know: they were uncomfortable diving with him. Their stress level is already high; we ask them to put on 50 pounds of gear with a heavy 7 mm wetsuit and stick themselves in a big mud puddle and perform psychomotor skills on a platform for all to watch. Now, in an emergency (or teaching situation) they will have to turn to someone who is using equipment unfamiliar to theirs. The students don't need any more stress. A couple of them expressed this concern to me and other staff members. In an out of air situation the long/short hose is not what the students were taught; as a teaching asst this would be inappropriate.
He is not a tec diver. He has never taken a tec class. He has never ventured deper than 120 ft. He has never done a deco dive. He is just trying to look "cool" in front of the students and other staff. But I don't have a problem with that. As my other students will tell you, I am one of the most easy-going tolerant people around. You can dive with whatever you want until it begins to affect the students. Then it has to stop. I wasn't threatened by his gear. I felt it was inappropriate for the sitation in which he was using it. At times, I used humor to try to get him to return to his "old" equipment. He took it the wrong way.
As he admits, even tho he is a DMC, he has taught his gf the Advanced Open Water class. This despite the fact that he has barely a year of diving experience and has never taken a teaching class in his life. What is worse, he has begun to express his views on continuing education to the other people and students. "Dive more before you take any more classes. learn how to handle the problems yourself (or from me)". For some students, the best way to continue diving at this point is in a supervised dive with a dive professional leading the tour. If you are enhancing your navigation skills, learning to handle narcosis or the dark, even better. This is the whole purpose of the AOW class. It gives them 5 more supervised dives at the start (usually) of their diving career. Many students, even tho certified and competent, still lack the confidence to dive with just a buddy. Confidence is extremely important to being a successful diver. I see lots of students who can clear masks, recover regulators, keep themselves relatively neutrally buoyany, etc. But they won't dive with JUST a buddy because they lack confidence in themselves. They end up quitting diving. Let's keep them doing the activity we love. Let's keep them diving. If they can dive on their own- great! If not, don't tell them not to take the class they need.
As for our relationship deteriorating, that is true. The DM class has a number of goals and rewards. For the student it is greater knowledge of diving, the ability to supervise other students and to pass on your love of diving. For the dive instructor, one of them is to add another member to your team, entrusted with the care of others. I believe in teamwork: in putting the good of the group ahead of yourself, in putting the needs of the students ahead of your own. I have been trying to iteach and model that attitude to Jason. He unfortunately is not a team-player. As he stated, he would rather dive with his new gear than help with students. He has always had an "I" attitude rather than a "we" attitude. He has still not seen the light to this day . In the past, on more than one occasion he has shown up unannounced (or with a couple of hrs notice) and imposed on a store/staff member to witness his DMC tasks rather than waiting for his instructor to be present. It was on my day off or when I was not at the divesite teaching. It didn't matter how inconvenient it was to the person working; it fit Jason's schedule. Until he is able to learn teamwork, to place the good of the group ahead of his own, until he learns to place a greater emphasis on the students' needs vs his own, he will be unwelcome at our training weekends. This last one was the final attempt by me to ask Jason to "join in" and you can see how it was answered. He has now completed all of the requirements for the Divemaster program. It is unfortunate how it is ending.
Could I have done it differently? Probably. I am sure that I will hear from many of you, criticizing my attitudes and my actions. But I am a successful dive educator with a large following. The teaching techniques that we use, the goals we set for our students, have always been successful in the past. I see no reason to change for one. Our "cattle call", as one of the other respondents called it, was made up of not only Open Water students, but Advanced Open Water students, students taking specialties, DMC's, CA's and 8 Instructors. And everyone was having fun socializing... and learning.... and getting to be better, safer divers. Jason developed in this environment. It is unfortunate that he will no longer be a part of it, by his choices. I will miss his friendship; I will miss his quirky sense of humor. I really do like the guy- but as of today, he is not right for the role he is trying to play.

It sounds like the DMC was a bit immature, but I think you were offbase also.. I PERSONALLY don't believe in breathing the long hose, but if the diver is confortable in diving that way it should be HIS choice not yours.. If the diver is doing something unsafe then correct him, but breathing the long hose is an accepted practice by some groups. Part of his DMC training is to assist students, you must have him do that.. If you had a problem you didn't discuss what was necessary ahead of time, he shouldn't be penalized.. Either set him up with another instructor who doesn't have a problem, or give him his money back with a sheet signing off what he did.. if your students felt unconfortable you didn't prep them for his gear and how to handle it.. I don;t like the long hose as a primary but all my students are made aware and what they should do.. putting your head in the sand is a dis service, they will see this after your class so be up front..

I believe in a Training letter of agreement with all my students detailing what is expected of them and what my responsibilities are.. This keeps both parties honest and no one can say I wasn't told...

I have refused to let people take classes (that they paid for) if they showed up unprepared.. Sometimes they ***** but it was in an agreement they signed.. Eventually they settle down and appreciate why you did it..



Most instructors I know use doubles when they are doing open water dives. The instructors are upfront and tell their students so they are not unconfortable. Personally I cant remember the last time I even wore a single tank... This allows them to stay in the water and handle additional students while the DMs take those who just completed dives out of the water..
 
I would stick with the BP/Wings and long hose even if it meant not being a DM. Being a DM sucks and is not worth compromising how you dive.

If a shop wants you to be an effective DM, they should let you use the gear that you feel comfortable with. I find it extremely arrogant when shops want you to buy new gear just for the "priviledge" of working for them...often for free.

I also would not want to set a bad example by using their gear in front of students or other divers. Personally, I would feel horrible if I did such a thing.
 
cd in chicago once bubbled...
He is not a tec diver. He has never taken a tec class. He has never ventured deper than 120 ft. He has never done a deco dive. He is just trying to look "cool" in front of the students and other staff. But I don't have a problem with that. As my other students will tell you, I am one of the most easy-going tolerant people around. You can dive with whatever you want until it begins to affect the students. Then it has to stop. I wasn't threatened by his gear. I felt it was inappropriate for the sitation in which he was using it. At times, I used humor to try to get him to return to his "old" equipment. He took it the wrong way.

What does his experience with tech diving have to do with anything?

A BP/Wing and longhose is not just for technical diving but also recreational. This setup is appropriate for recreational diving. I and many other people on this board find it to be the preferred setup for new or experienced divers.

I think that students seeing different gear configurations would be helpful. In the real world, they will be exposed to a lot of different setups and need to be familiar with them. Perhaps if you or Jason had taken time to explain how his gear works, the students would have been more comfortable.

As for new divers being uncomfortable with the BP/Wing and long hose, that has not been my experience. Some of my students have used such a setup for their OW class with no problems. I teach and dive in a BP/Wing and long hose setup exclusively and it has never been a problem.


Dive Safe
 
I want to thank everyone who responded in support of continuing education. Numerous good points were brought up which I did not cover in my post which I'm glad they were.

Maybe "selfish" was not the correct choice of words but Jason was comfortable in receiving his OW and AOW with us several months ago with gf #1. There must have been a reason why he came back to our facility with gf #2 for her OW and proceed in continuing his education with us in the Rescue and DM Programs.

It was disappointing to see her stop at OW. She was so enthusiastic and excited about learning as much as she could. I am glad she is diving with her buddy and have encouraged this also. Sharing the knowledge he has obtained is also great but an Instructor he is not.

Thanks again for the positive feed-back on OW/AOW -

Eileen
 
ElectricZombie once bubbled...
I would stick with the BP/Wings and long hose even if it meant not being a DM. Being a DM sucks and is not worth compromising how you dive.

If a shop wants you to be an effective DM, they should let you use the gear that you feel comfortable with. I find it extremely arrogant when shops want you to buy new gear just for the "priviledge" of working for them...often for free.

I also would not want to set a bad example by using their gear in front of students or other divers. Personally, I would feel horrible if I did such a thing.

Good heavens! I think we found someone to rival even the great Genesis in his cynicism.

How long did you work as a DM before becoming an instructor? With an attitude like that I can almost answer the questino for you but I'll wait for you to walk into this yourself. Please don't lie.

Personally I think being a DM is the best thing in the world unless you wnat to be paid for it. If you want money, go work at McDonalds. If you want to make a real difference in the skills of new students become a DM.

A good DM will teach everything that's missing in the system. "My" students--and yes I am *required* to take *personal* responsibility for *my* students. Learn from me everything that the PADI book doesn't mandate.

Swimming neutral......

Good Kicks......

Multiple kicks.......

Buddy skills.......

... the list goes on and on ...

As a DM I "train" all of the difficult cases while the instructor ticks off the ones who get it. I can't introduce a skill or approve it for certification but I can bl00dy make sure that they got it. and I'm expected to do this.

'My' students don't go into open water able to do fin-pivots and hover for a minute but unable to control their buoyancy while swimming. I make sure they can do this before I get out of the pool with them. If they touch the bottom of the pool with one little finger I correct them. Usually I do it in such a way that they laugh and have to clear their mask after that too :)..... If they drift to the surface I correct them. If they drift more than 2 meters part from their buddy I correct them.....vigirously (i'm nightmarish strict about this because of local OW conditions). If I say "swim at the same depth as me" and they can't I work with them until they can.

I require them to work as a unit from the moment they enter the door.

They don't go into open water without buddy awareness and the ability to keep contact, move as a unit, swim neutral and communicate.

And the most *certainly* don't go into open water having demonstrated something once without "really learning" it. I hear this complaint often but a good PADI DM will make notes of who needs more practice or more explanation and they will be drilled until can can do it bored and blindfolded.

Obviously this is a team effort and I'm sure that there are local differences in how people employ DM's but the way it is for me I'll never become an instructor (unless I can assist as a CA) because it is (a) the most interesting (b) the most challenging and (c) the way you can make the biggest difference.

And I would suggest that if this sounds foreign to you that you have neither been a competent DM nor have you had one working for you.

R..
 
If the LDS had wanted Jason to help out with students on a planned course-training session and he did not have the right gear, what is wrong with lending him that gear.
As long as he does not break it, what is the harm?

Off topic
I have dived/trained in wings and jacket-style bcds and I have not had students stress levels go up ( anymore than they already are) because of the style of jacket I use.

CD in Chicago has a right to expect a certain level of professionalism from Jason, (a call to see if it is convenient to come and do some DM stuff), but in return, Jason has a right to expect a little latitude in his developing training style. Unless you are a fairly wealthy indivdual, or totally committed to the sport, you will only be able to afford one set of gear initially and that is the style of diving you are comfortable with, however if it is not what the OW students are learning to dive with, and they have to be the primary concern, then it has to be "The OW student comes first"
 
Belushi once bubbled...
...Unless you are a fairly wealthy indivdual, or totally committed to the sport, you will only be able to afford one set of gear initially and that is the style of diving you are comfortable with, however if it is not what the OW students are learning to dive with, and they have to be the primary concern, then it has to be "The OW student comes first"

I think Jason already owns traditional gear, but amen to your post.
 
Just to set the record straight on Jason's dive equipment. He has a set of traditional dive gear which is less than 1 year old. Jason started the DM program with traditional gear. Showed up one week-end with his "new stuff".

He was just asked not to use it while working with students.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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