DiveMaster/LDS conflict

[Dryglove]

cd_in_SeaTac once bubbled...


What does an independent DM do, have a full time job and lead orientation dives?

If he sold crap bcs and regs and wanted me to wear it in front of students, I'd do it if he provided or I owned as backups. But if he sold crap I'd be associated with a different shop I think, so it's a non-issue.

The point i am trying to make is that a independent DM may deal with more than just one shop. If they worked strictly for one shop more than likely that DM would be made to wear the gear that shop sells regardless if that is the gear he normally uses or not.

So you would risk your life and your students lives by wearing crap gear to promote gear sales for that particualr shop. By you wearing crap gear more than likely your students are gonna buy that same crap gear because they see their mentor wearing it. So where is looking out for the students best interest in a statement like you posted above.

By the same token i would be two faced if i were a DM and used gear that the shop sold to promote sales but used my BP/wing when i dive unafiliated from that shop.

 

[Diversauras]

lal7176 once bubbled...

So you would risk your life and your students lives by wearing crap gear to promote gear sales for that particualr shop. By you wearing crap gear more than likely your students are gonna buy that same crap gear because they see their mentor wearing it. So where is looking out for the students best interest in a statement like you posted above.

Once again the thread has been hijacked from shop policy to gear configuration.

I really just have been enjoying this thread but I need to add my 2 cents worth now.

Just because gear is not the gear YOU have chosen it is not necessairly crap. There is very little crap out on the market these days.

fire away

 

[Dryglove]

Diver0001 once bubbled...


LOL

And an instructor's job is to stamp C-cards and railroad students through pointless courses to create fodder for the dive-industry. Right?

R..

I dont know how instructors got involved in this.... but if you say so.

 

[Dryglove]

Im not trying to flame anyone or start an endless arguement. Words like "dive professional" are thrown out in the wind quite a bit. If you are a true dive professional wouldnt you want to expose your students to all apsects of gear styles and not put blinders on them so they only buy the gear that is offered through the shop they got certified through. Let them make the decision and not be brainwashed into buying gear. Often times the word "dive professional" is very limited by the shop you DM for.

 

[downtime2]

When I took my dm course I was told that I could wear whatever gear I wanted, but if I wanted to start helping with classes after I got my cert I'd have to wear gear the shop sold. Additionally, the shop's management equated bp/wings and long hose with dir. This setup was taboo. In order to help with the classes I would have to buy a new drysuit and a new "traditional" bc, and lose the long hose. Because my instructor appreciated my help he would 'turn the other way' when it came to the gear I wore when helping classes, but would not allow a long hose. I was eventually told that I had 3-4 months to buy a new drysuit and bc or I would no longer be able to help with classes.

The solution? I went to another lds that I frequented and they basically told me "c'mon over, we'd love to have you, I don't care what gear you use as long as it's safe...". The owner's reasoning was that since he gives the dm's everything at 10-15% over cost, when they need new gear they're going to buy from him, if he were to force them to buy new gear, it would just cause friction and would detract from the most important thing...the students' training and safety.

The end result? I am working for a shop that I am happy with, who's owner I highly respect and I will end up spending much more money there because I WANT TO rather than shop A where I would HAVE TO. One of the other dm's even had a slap strap with another lds' logo on it (he did eventually remove that out of respect for the owner). The other shop is still churning out classes, but is constantly short staffed because their dm's are going elsewhere where they can help teach the sport they love without breaking their bank for the privilege. It's not unusual for some instructors at that shop to have 8-10 ow students with only the instructor and one dm. I find that disturbing, but with policies like that, they won't keep any dm on the staff for long. The shop I'm at now has almost a 1 to 1 student to staff ratio and has full con ed classes at any given time. Why? Simply because the staff is happy and enthusiastic. Genuine enthusiasm sells.

To speak from my experiences helping classes (20-30 classes, not a lot, not a small number either)...I have never had a student say they were uncomfortable with the long hose setup. As a matter of fact, I've had several tell me that they like the idea of that configuration better. The ow students have the standard primary/octo setup. Likewise, I have helped classes with doubles and single tanks. All it took was a little explanation during the briefings to familiarize them with my setup. If the communication is there I do't see how students would be so uncomfortable with their staff using a long hose. That is no more foreign to them than any other piece of dive gear or any other equipment configuration.

That's just my opinion and experiences,
dt

 

[Ceberon]

As someone already said, if you ask someone to teach you how to fill out your tax returns, they should be telling you exactly what you need to know, not explaining every little detail about the tax system.

While most people here are interested in learning as much as they can about diving, this is not the general population.

The people who generally take lessons are going to be those who want to dive a few times on their Hawaii vacation. They're the people who will have one dive vacation per year perhaps.

They do not need to know about backplates, about their reg choices, about long hoses, etc. Show them the gear, tell them it will work well for them, teach them how to dive in that gear, sell them that gear, and they're good to go. They know just as much as they need to know to do the diving they're interested in.

If they come back to to the shop and say they're interested in tech diving, or in advanced classes, by all means, tell them more, show them options. If they ask questions, answer them as best you can.

On the whole though, OW students do not need to know about all the gear configurations. If they have so little experience, there's no reason to overwhelm them. If they have a buddy in Hawaii that is using a long hose, they're certainly taught to explain to the DM that they're uncomfortable with that gear configuration, and request a different buddy. I think that's a perfectly reasonable solution.

 

[Dryglove]

downtime once bubbled...
When I took my dm course I was told that I could wear whatever gear I wanted, but if I wanted to start helping with classes after I got my cert I'd have to wear gear the shop sold. Additionally, the shop's management equated bp/wings and long hose with dir. This setup was taboo. In order to help with the classes I would have to buy a new drysuit and a new bc. Because my instructor appreciated my help he would 'turn the other way' when it came to the gear I wore when helping classes, but would not allow a long hose. I was eventually told that I had 3-4 months to buy a new drysuit and bc or I would no longer be able to help with classes.

The solution? I went to another lds that I frequented and they basically told me "c'mon over, we'd love to have you, I don't care what gear you use as long as it's safe...". The owner's reasoning was that since he gives the dm's everything at 10-15% over cost, when they need new gear they're going to buy from him, if he were to force them to buy new gear, it would just cause friction and would detract from the most important thing...the students' training and safety.

The end result? I am working for a shop that I am happy with, who's owner I highly respect and will end up spending much more money there because I WANT TO rather than shop A where I would HAVE TO. One of the other dm's even had a slap strap with another lds' logo on it (he did eventaully remove that out of respect for the owner). The other shop is still churning out classes, but is constantly short staffed because their dm's are going elsewhere where they can help teach the sport they love without breaking their bank for the privilege. It's not unusual for some instructors at that shop to have 8-10 ow students with only the instructor and one dm. I find that disturbing, but with policies like that, they won't keep any dm on the staff for long.

To speak from my experiences helping classes (20-30 classes, not a lot, not a small number either)...I have never had a student say they were uncomfortable with the long hose setup. As a matter of fact, I've had several tell me that they like the idea of that configuration better. The ow students have the standard primary/octo setup. Likewise, I have helped classes with doubles and single tanks. All it took was a little explanation during the briefings to familiarize them with my setup. If the communication is there I do't see how students would be so uncomfortable with their staff using a long hose. That is no more foreign to them than any other piece of dive gear or any other configuration.

That's jsut my opinion and experiences,
dt

Thats great you found a shop to let you wear what you normally dive with. Thats how it should be and not like the first paragraph of your post. Hats off to your dive shop

 

[Dryglove]

The people who generally take lessons are going to be those who want to dive a few times on their Hawaii vacation. They're the people who will have one dive vacation per year perhaps.

Why not talk to the student and find out what his goals are. Dont assume all divers are going to dive a few times a year.

They do not need to know about backplates, about their reg choices, about long hoses, etc. Show them the gear, tell them it will work well for them, teach them how to dive in that gear, sell them that gear, and they're good to go. They know just as much as they need to know to do the diving they're iOn the whole though, OW students do not need to know about all the gear configurations. If they have so little experience, there's no reason to overwhelm them. If they have a buddy in Hawaii that is using a long hose, they're certainly taught to explain to the DM that they're uncomfortable with that gear configuration, and request a different buddy. I think that's a perfectly reasonable solution.nterested in.

How is a bp/wing and a long hose overwhelming a student any more than a standard bc? So basically all your students cant make a decision and you will choose all their gear for them. Are you sure your not a used car salesman.

 

[Diver0001]

lal7176 once bubbled...


<snip>

My biggest problem is DM's like Diver0001 who think they are a god to diving. Maybe he is all that but i have run across few who are but yet they all put themselves on a pedastool(sp?) above all others. I definitely dont think i am all that and am all for learning but for goodness sakes leave my tank valves alone.

You missed my point entirely. Must be my fault and I want to go ovre it again if you don't mind.

I don't know anything about being God to anything. I'm reacting (perhaps over-reaciting) to a couple of highly cynical comments. One from someone who has no idea what he's talking about but has the biggest mouth on scubaboard. And one who for what ever reason very likely went straight to instructor (like many do) without ever becoming a competent DM (might be a NAUI / PADI difference, I don't know).

Both of them, like you, actually, have strong opinions about what being a DM means. But none of you have ever been a practitioning DM.

I also have an opinion about what being a DM means but I *do* it. You don't. Genesis doesn't, Zombie doesnt and problaby never did. I'm trying to explain, perhaps much too forecefully, that a DM isn't "useless" doesn't "suck" as Zombie said and isn't just a "walking billboard" for anything as you said.

If I brought it in a way that got your dick all in a knot, then I'm sorry. Maybe I over-reacted. I probably did. You can understand over-reacting, right? I wasn't trying to sound arrogant but I can understand you reading it like that. I was trying to offer a counter balance. Evidently I went too far.

I can't answer for the DM that turned off your valves any more than I can answer for all the mistakes of project managers (my day job) but I will say this: I know for sure I wouldn't ahve done it without asking your permission first. This is clearly a saftety issue. You think they're *on* so you need to *know* if that changes. Obviously in your case the DM screwed up and it made you angry. I can understand that; I'm sorry that this happened and I sincerely hope that you discussed it with the DM in question, if nothing else, for your own peace of mind.

R..

 

[downtime2]

I fail to see the difficulty for a student to understand the long hose. How is this any more foreign to them than any other gear configuration? Aside from a picture in the text book most students have no more familiarity with the standard configuration than the longhose.

If a staff member dives with a long hose, they need to discuss their configuration with the students, but I don't see how this is overloading the students. If they aren't able to grasp that concept, I would be concerned about many other concepts they may not be able to grasp during the course of the class.