DiveMaster/LDS conflict

[netmage]

downtime once bubbled...
I fail to see the difficulty for a student to understand the long hose. How is this any more foreign to them than any other gear configuration? Aside from a picture in the text book most students have no more familiarity with the standard configuration than the longhose.

If a staff member dives with a long hose, they need to discuss their configuration with the students, but I don't see how this is overloading the students. If they aren't able to grasp that concept, I would be concerned about many other concepts they may not be able to grasp during the course of the class.

Ya know - if anything it enforces the training... i.e. the Buddy Check... Knowing your buddies gear configuration for octo options is just as important as knowing how to ditch his weights. No one seems to be throwing a fit over people using or not using integrated weights? About the different mechanisms to releasing them? These are just as important aspects of gear configuration!

Having recently been in a emergency situation (freeflow at 119ft & 32 degrees) I can tell you there was nothing confusing, weird, stressed out with my buddy diving the long hose. If anything I appreciated the extra length and comfort it provided for a safe ascent. Now I'm going to channel the spirit of SeaJay for a second "Page eight of the PADI AOW manual, jerkoff. Don't you teach that?"

Before I get totally flamed - I'll add the disclaimer I think there are good and bad instructors with every agency and don't think a particular instructors affiliation with any agency makes them any more or less qualified. But, I see the attitudes presented here nothing more than a reinforcement of the bad rap agencies have been getting over the years - the dumbing down of diving to make it more commercially viable vs ensuring the competancy of participants into a potentially dangerous sport.

If someone has concerns they should be addressed a dealt with - problems exist to work through. Not thrown out and tossed to the side like they don't exist. Resorting to sarcasm and jokes is not the way to communicate between a instructor and student - it clearly wasn't effective and did nothing but promote the idea that the decision was all about gear sales.

 

[ElectricZombie]

Diver0001 once bubbled...

Zombie doesnt and problaby never did.

Wrong. I was a "practitioning DM" long before I became an Instructor. I rarely DM now and have not for a while. I have no intention of doing so again. You may enjoy being a DM, I don't.

 

[diverbrian]

cd_in_SeaTac once bubbled...


What does an independent DM do, have a full time job and lead orientation dives?

If it wasn't for the classes what would be the fun in that, it certainly doesn't pay anything near McDonalds. and while leading divers around somewhere new to them might be fun it's hit or miss seasonal work at best.

I'm not following this aversion to the "LDS gear" why hang with this LDS if they don't sell the gear you want. I think the original point of the Hog rig vs. "rec rig" (per instructor's argument) is one thing, but I buy gear from my shop, that's why it's my shop. Taking the DM course and working with students wasn't an issue as it's the shop lines of gear and the owner/my instructor that turned me on about the place.

If he sold crap bcs and regs and wanted me to wear it in front of students, I'd do it if he provided or I owned as backups. But if he sold crap I'd be associated with a different shop I think, so it's a non-issue.

The reason that the shop policy doesn't bother me. If they sold garbage, I wouldn't shop there. I would not represent them if they sold dangerous gear. So why should I worry about it if I am restricted to gear that the shop sells?! Indeed, this is a non-issue to me. Believe me, I don't expect to make a living as a Dive Control Specialist! LOL

 

[Genesis]

In the same way, I believe that proper teaching for using scuba equipment is important, not only for yourself, but for your buddy. I do not want a buddy who never had it explained exactly why he needs to keep his alternate in the triangle..

I don't want the alternate in the triangle. Not for me, not for my buddy.

If, for some reason, I am out of air, the means of getting air will be whatever bubbles. It will be for you too, when your visual field is narrowing as you suffocate! Triangle my tailfeathers! If it bubbles, its MINE! You can SAY you won't do this, but I bet that if you've got 10 seconds to unconsciousness, you WILL grab anything that is bubbling - even if you have to rip it out of another diver's mouth.

Now, my backup is in fact MINE. Its around my NECK and the hose is VERY short. If you go OOA and GRAB the one I'm breathing, you're going to get a nice long hose - long enough that you can't strangle me. I'll just duck my head and release it from under my pouch, and you can have as much of it as you need. I'll pick up my backup and all is well.

If you TELL ME before you need it, I'll hand you one that you will KNOW works, because you just saw it in MY mouth. Its MY responsibility to make sure my alternate works - that one is MINE under all circumstances. I prove to you that the one that I give you works every time you ask (or just take it) because you just saw me breathing it.

Alternate Schmalterante. There's a good chance that your "alternate" is full of sand, rocks, mud, breathes like a fire hose or doesn't work at all. Why? You know damn well YOU don't have to rely on it. Therefore, if its a $50 piece of garbage that's ok, since its not YOUR azz that will die down there if it sucks. I had a guy on my boat today with one that had a nice freeflow - slow, but leaking.

He didn't care - that reg wasn't for him. Nice eh? Good thing I wasn't his buddy......

I, on the other hand, will hand you a regulator that I know works just fine, as I was just using it, and further, I've got another one that I know works just fine - I know this because I take very good care of it, since its useless to anyone other than me in actual use. As such, if there is a "situation" I'm going to have to use it, and as a consequence I test it often and keep it right around my neck where it can't get damaged or pick up garbage in the water.

 

[diverbrian]

Genesis,

For once, I am not arguing with you. I am softening what you are saying a bit though.

Our LDS teaches students to hand off the primary for several reasons. One of the primary is the assumption that the person will grab for the functioning reg. The funny thing is that the one dive buddy that I had run out of air on me (We both had Al eighties and I had 1200 psi left) simply went up without doing anymore than giving me a signal that looked more like "a need a shave" than "OUT OF GAS, you moron." He knew that he was running low and quick and NON-PANICKED as you please performed a Control Swimming Ascent when his reg. breathed dry. So, NO.... They don't always grab for the functioning reg.

There is another major reason that we do this. There ARE indeed so many equipment set-ups nowadays. It is simple to remember to hand of a primary and everybody knows where their own "secondary" is by instinct. The instructors that I work with would rather have some positive action taken towards getting the OOG diver some breathing gas, than fumble reaching for a secondary hasn't been tested since the pre-dive checks. Also, in my recreational gear, my secondary is a Seaquest Airsource on my power inflator. This is kind of a short hose to grab. In my doubles, it is the standard high performance second stage connected to a bungee around my neck. Guess what, my secondary is reaching one person's mouth in either case. Yep, MINE! These are both configurations that we teach in class. Oh yeah, we also teach for the standard octo users. The basics of all air shares in this case are the same and automatic for the donor (if diving within NDL's; if not diving within NDL's, modify to alleviate overhead environment/deco obligation concerns):

1. Hang off reg.
2. Get Secondary in mouth
3. Get a hold of Buddy's BC
4. Start a controlled ascent (including safety stop if enough air exists to do this) and depending on cause of problem, the OOG may be corrected on the way up (ie. Free flow requiring closing and reopening of tank valve.)



This does not change with configuration, so it is easy to remember. I do believe that the so-called "triangle" does include the mouth area though, but I forget.

Now I could go into the other reasons that I read that you have a less stressed buddy as they are guaranteed a working air supply, but then I would be preaching to the choir, wouldn't I.

 

[Genesis]

This does not change with configuration, so it is easy to remember. I do believe that the so-called "triangle" does include the mouth area though, but I forget.

Now I could go into the other reasons that I read that you have a less stressed buddy as they are guaranteed a working air supply, but then I would be preaching to the choir, wouldn't I.

There is one SERIOUS problem with handing an OOA diver your primary on a REGULAR length hose - its too darn short!

This is my ONE complaint with the Air2/Airsource type config - the primary hose is not long enough. If you're going to dive that, you should use a 5' hose on the primary (which does not require a cannister or pocket; it routes under the right arm quite easily) and solve that problem.

While you want the OOA diver in reach, and you want to "link up" for the ascent, you DO NOT want them literally "mask-to-mask". There is a proximity where you make the danger level go UP rather than down, as you start interfering with the ability to use your dump, etc.

Other than that point, I agree...

 

[Dryglove]

I also have an opinion about what being a DM means but I *do* it. You don't.

I choose not to as i dont agree with the politics. Its not like i cant do it, but chose not to.

If I brought it in a way that got your dick all in a knot, then I'm sorry. Maybe I over-reacted. I probably did. You can understand over-reacting, right? I wasn't trying to sound arrogant but I can understand you reading it like that. I was trying to offer a counter balance. Evidently I went too far.

None of what has been said has insulted me. Its just a friendly debate. I voiced my opinion on why ill never pursue a jr leadership course. You expressed why you choose to be one. Neither of us are right or wrong, just differing opinions.

I can't answer for the DM that turned off your valves any more than I can answer for all the mistakes of project managers (my day job) but I will say this: I know for sure I wouldn't ahve done it without asking your permission first. This is clearly a saftety issue. You think they're *on* so you need to *know* if that changes. Obviously in your case the DM screwed up and it made you angry. I can understand that; I'm sorry that this happened and I sincerely hope that you discussed it with the DM in question, if nothing else, for your own peace of mind.

Well actually it happened by three different DM's on three different trips. Then two of them want to argue that they didnt shut my valve off afterwards. At least admit to your mistake. I now politely ask the DM's not to touch my valves if i see them reaching for it before splashing in.

The only thing that i ask of DM's is dont put yourself above all other divers just because you have a DM card. Many of us have just as much and sometimes much more experience diving than a lot of DM's. if you do something as a DM please be sure you know what the heck your doing and if you dont ask first.

 

[Crocker]

Everyone wants to dive their own gear but unless you are a independent you should represent the LDS otherwise there won't be a LDS available when you really need them. The LDS doesn't make a living only on the classes, they really need the whole picture shown to the new diver in order to survive especially when they are being beaten up by the internet. Remember that the new diver is very impressionable and they look at everything around them at the LDS and the open water site.

 

[Gareth]

The vast majority of the posts on this thread appear to come from very experienced, and I have to assume very comptetent, divers. I thought it might be interesting to add my own comments from the perspective of someone who has only recently completed their OW and AOW Course.

From my perspective, I understand the view of both the DM and the instructor.

The DM's configuration, as I have understood it, makes a lot of sense. The idea that someone in a panic will go for a reg that "is bubbling" and "known to be working" seems logical to me. I could imagine myself in a complete panic, tunnel vision approaching, going for the reg in my buddy's mouth rather than search for another. I can see that makes a lot of sense. However, during the PADI ow course, I had read the book throughly, watched the video a couple of times (although that was an effort) and listened intently to my instructor. I had the idea of grabbing the alternate pretty solidly in my head, and to suddenly have someone say "well, yes thats right, except if its me you won't be able to find an alternate so go for my primary regulator" would have added an element of stress that was not called for. Certainly in my dives since qualifying I don't believe I have seen two divers with the same configuration, which simply outlines the importance of the pre-dive buddy check, but I believe the time to add all of these elements is not during the fundemental OW course. During the basic courses, it was comforting to see everyone around me dressed in similar, if not identical, kit.

when diving in Horsea (UK) we saw another school who were literally all in identical kit. Not only did they look professional, but they all looked very relaxed indeed.

Additionally, as part of my job I train people, and groups of people,, albeit not in diving. When I am in control of a group of people in a stressful environment, it is critical that I am managing the stress levels of everyone there, and furthermore that I am seen to be in complete control of the situation. If the instructor asked the person not to dive with a yellow wetsuit becuase he believed it added stress to the situation, then surely it is the DM's reponsibility to defer to the instructor at that point.

The argument about whether or not dive shops finance the kit is a complex one, and I'm not familiar enough with the shops to comment with any experience. However, it makes sense to me that the dive shop should ask a DM to wear kit they sell, and if they do not own it, then to rent it to them at a reduced or null rate. This benefits the students by reducing the stress levels, and obviously has positive implications for the dive shop's revenue stream. Forcing them to buy it or pay full whack for it is simply unethical, unless this has been made clear to the DM before they began their own course.



Just some newbie thoughts

Gareth

 

[El Orans]

Gareth once bubbled...
The idea that someone in a panic will go for a reg that "is bubbling" and "known to be working" seems logical to me.

My wife experienced it today. While doing a deep dive as part of our AOW course I accidentally pulled her regulator away while I was trying to help her with her light. She told me afterwards that her instinctive reaction was to grab my primary regulator. She recovered a few seconds later and grabbed her octopus which is always located on the left hip. Problem solved.