DiveMaster/LDS conflict

[TCDiver1]

Atticus once bubbled...


Gedunk - perhaps this is a comment out of context?

The discomfort comment had to do with gear configuration - ie: not being comfortable with the gear one is diving. I assume you don't mean that wearing gear that you are not familiar with and comfortable with is right when teaching / taking the lives of others into your hands?

-Atticus

My bad, sorry .... guess thats what i get for not reading the whole thread. That is definately not what i meant. I thought the original comment related to state of mind not equipment config. Teaching with unfamiliar equipment is definately a bad thing IMO.

But thats common sense isn't it?

 

[jepuskar]

I am really happy I got my DM open water dives done before my instructor said something...I even did some with my BP/wing, but nothing was said until now.

I am pretty stubborn when I believe I am right, I guess it is called pride. I have made a decision to stick with my gear no matter what, if that means I don't DM with them, that is ok, maybe I'll find another store, preferably one that goes to the same quarry..hehe

Another issue is, if I decide to become an instructor..not very likely at this time, I will have to conform to some more standards. ugh!

I guess it is just a matter of identifying what I want out of all of this. Using me as a puppet to parade the dive shop gear is not an option. Darn politics start already...

Good discussion my fellow members.

I said member..uhuhuh huhuh hehehe hehehe

 

[kENO]

They way i see it for the owners of the lds is that they are there to sell products to keep in business, if you go to work at mc donalds your not going to wear a burger king outfit to work cuz that what you like to wear while you flip burgers, it jus not going to cut it...they want you to wear there uniform, thats how i see it....

 

[weekender]

i totally agree with KENO. i have a rather autonomous job but at times my boss comes over and tells me to do something i dont like. if i complain he says in typical boss fashion, "im a partner, its my house, do it or leave." you have every right to disagree with the lds owner and that is fine. but its his house and if you dont like it leave. you might be ethically right, doesnt matter. your not the boss. find a shop that agrees with you and will benefit from your help. leave this guy. you'll both be happier.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Hey jepuskar

If you want to help with a class once in a while and wear a bp/wing/long hose PM me. That's how all my DM's dress up.

 

[cd in chicago]

I guess it's time to set the record straight.
I am the instructor that jepuskar is talking about. And yes I did ask Jason to wear his less than 1 yr "old" equipment. The reason I gave him was that we wanted the students to see our leadership people in equipment that we sell. This is true; it keeps our dive center in business so we can teach classes and fill air tanks- things the internet cannot do.
As he admits, he did use his new gear a couple of times with the students. Here's what he did not know: they were uncomfortable diving with him. Their stress level is already high; we ask them to put on 50 pounds of gear with a heavy 7 mm wetsuit and stick themselves in a big mud puddle and perform psychomotor skills on a platform for all to watch. Now, in an emergency (or teaching situation) they will have to turn to someone who is using equipment unfamiliar to theirs. The students don't need any more stress. A couple of them expressed this concern to me and other staff members. In an out of air situation the long/short hose is not what the students were taught; as a teaching asst this would be inappropriate.
He is not a tec diver. He has never taken a tec class. He has never ventured deper than 120 ft. He has never done a deco dive. He is just trying to look "cool" in front of the students and other staff. But I don't have a problem with that. As my other students will tell you, I am one of the most easy-going tolerant people around. You can dive with whatever you want until it begins to affect the students. Then it has to stop. I wasn't threatened by his gear. I felt it was inappropriate for the sitation in which he was using it. At times, I used humor to try to get him to return to his "old" equipment. He took it the wrong way.
As he admits, even tho he is a DMC, he has taught his gf the Advanced Open Water class. This despite the fact that he has barely a year of diving experience and has never taken a teaching class in his life. What is worse, he has begun to express his views on continuing education to the other people and students. "Dive more before you take any more classes. learn how to handle the problems yourself (or from me)". For some students, the best way to continue diving at this point is in a supervised dive with a dive professional leading the tour. If you are enhancing your navigation skills, learning to handle narcosis or the dark, even better. This is the whole purpose of the AOW class. It gives them 5 more supervised dives at the start (usually) of their diving career. Many students, even tho certified and competent, still lack the confidence to dive with just a buddy. Confidence is extremely important to being a successful diver. I see lots of students who can clear masks, recover regulators, keep themselves relatively neutrally buoyany, etc. But they won't dive with JUST a buddy because they lack confidence in themselves. They end up quitting diving. Let's keep them doing the activity we love. Let's keep them diving. If they can dive on their own- great! If not, don't tell them not to take the class they need.
As for our relationship deteriorating, that is true. The DM class has a number of goals and rewards. For the student it is greater knowledge of diving, the ability to supervise other students and to pass on your love of diving. For the dive instructor, one of them is to add another member to your team, entrusted with the care of others. I believe in teamwork: in putting the good of the group ahead of yourself, in putting the needs of the students ahead of your own. I have been trying to iteach and model that attitude to Jason. He unfortunately is not a team-player. As he stated, he would rather dive with his new gear than help with students. He has always had an "I" attitude rather than a "we" attitude. He has still not seen the light to this day . In the past, on more than one occasion he has shown up unannounced (or with a couple of hrs notice) and imposed on a store/staff member to witness his DMC tasks rather than waiting for his instructor to be present. It was on my day off or when I was not at the divesite teaching. It didn't matter how inconvenient it was to the person working; it fit Jason's schedule. Until he is able to learn teamwork, to place the good of the group ahead of his own, until he learns to place a greater emphasis on the students' needs vs his own, he will be unwelcome at our training weekends. This last one was the final attempt by me to ask Jason to "join in" and you can see how it was answered. He has now completed all of the requirements for the Divemaster program. It is unfortunate how it is ending.
Could I have done it differently? Probably. I am sure that I will hear from many of you, criticizing my attitudes and my actions. But I am a successful dive educator with a large following. The teaching techniques that we use, the goals we set for our students, have always been successful in the past. I see no reason to change for one. Our "cattle call", as one of the other respondents called it, was made up of not only Open Water students, but Advanced Open Water students, students taking specialties, DMC's, CA's and 8 Instructors. And everyone was having fun socializing... and learning.... and getting to be better, safer divers. Jason developed in this environment. It is unfortunate that he will no longer be a part of it, by his choices. I will miss his friendship; I will miss his quirky sense of humor. I really do like the guy- but as of today, he is not right for the role he is trying to play.

 

[CD_in_Chitown]

of the story. But how do you explain taking someone of that experience/maturity level and questionable judgement into the DM course in the first place? That seems to justify the "cattle herd" accusation some.

 

[cd in chicago]

the student met the pre-reqs. I was hoping that he would grow as his dive knowledge and experience did.

 

[Dryglove]

Why is that if he wears a bp/wing he has to be a wanna be tec diver. This is where a lot of the misunderstanding is. Single tank bp/wing set ups make great recreational dive rigs. On top of that they grow with you allowing you to expand to doubles and go into technical diving if you so desire. All using the same basic setup.

The long hose and bungeed back up make a lot of sense compared to an octo thats dangling from your gear somewhere. You know right where it is(your breathin from it) and is the fastest way to donate in my opinion and is probably the one a panicked out of air diver will grab for anyways. Your back up is easily located and used as it is bungeed under your chin.

I understand that you have problems with jep but dont knock his gear till you have tried it. Oh i forgot you dont sell it and wont make money off of it so thats not an option. I very seriously doubt his gear set up intimidated the students as it is very easy to understand what is going to be donated in a OOA situation. The biggest threat was the fact the students might want to buy gear you dont sell.

Personally i feel DM's are walking billboards for the shops they work for. Students want to buy what the teachers are using. If you dont sell what jep is using you are losing money on a potential sell but please dont knock the gear set up unless you fully understand it and realize a whole lot of recreational divers including me are using a bp/wing/long hose as they are a great set up and its what we prefer.

I also agree Jep can be a pain in the butt....oops did i say that But he does mean well and is a funny guy sometimes.

Ill go patiently wait for jep to say somehing bad about me now.:mean:

 

[Genesis]

CD, you've said a few things that I find disturbing.

First, the representation that Jason is not a tec diver, he has never done deco, etc - and this somehow makes his choice of gear "wrong."

You are the one who is wrong.

I have witnessed exactly one "real" OOA. Witnessed - I was not a part of it. The diver with gas got mugged.

Now, pehaps you teach the nice "slash hand at throat and wait" nonsense, but its not the truth in terms of how it happens in real life. In real life the bubbling thing gets TAKEN. If a fight ensues for the bubbling regulator, TWO people are likely to die, and one almost certainly will.

If the donor has his backup hanging securely around his neck, he KNOWS where that one is. There is no need to "take back" the bubbling one, because he has another perfectly good one - and he KNOWS its good. Since he will never give that one up (the hose is too short, for one thing), he'll want a nice-breathing reg on there, not some P.O.S. diveshop special that MIGHT provide enough air, MIGHT work and MIGHT not breathe like a firehose or be full of dirt, sand or rocks.

Second, reality is that not everyone dives with the same gear. Perhaps in your utopian view where you have a nice captive audience and can try to cram gear down a newbie's throat (to your profit, of course) that's the way the world works, but its not the way the REAL world works.

In the real world people wear stab jackets, they wear back-inflate jackets, some of them have weight integrated (with varying ways of releasing it) and some have traditional belts. Some wear their belts over their BCs, some under. Some even wear theirs under their crotch straps (me, for instance.) Some use (horror of horrors) a HUB! One lady who dives with my on occasion has one - am I to refuse to buddy with her because she wears something different than I do? No. They all hold a tank, they all have two regs, a SPG, a depth gauge, might have a computer, provide buoyancy control and are fastened to you in some way.

Now if the deal is one of you wanting him to wear gear he already has, provided its in decent, servicable condition, that shouldn't get anyone's dander up.

But if you want him to BUY gear from you, that's a different matter. That's indentured servitude and, unless you disclosed this requirement up front BEFORE he took the class, you've got no right to do that.

IMHO you should offer to provide the gear, owned by you, to Jason for his use during the time he is teaching for you. You might also want to rethink your aversion to the long hose and bungied backup. It can be used comfortably with some (but not all) conventional BCs, and if its a 5' hose it can be used with virtually all (needing no place to route as it goes under your arm.)

There is no reason to have a hiss about the long hose. As for the type of BC, I would not care what a shop wanted me to wear as their DM if it was provided to me at no cost to me for my use while teaching. Note that I'm not saying you should GIVE him a BC - it should be your BC, but he should have the use of it, and it should be kept in "near-new" condition (at your expense and trouble) since you ARE making the representation that this is done for the benefit of your sales.

The rest of the complaint you posted - including ripping hmi for helping his girlfriend - is a bald-faced attempt at character assasination and is un-called for. You do not need to have an instructor's card to teach someone a thing or three, nor to provide them with more-experienced help. That's simply a complaint that instead of him sending her to YOU to spend money, he took the time to dive with her instead.

This is a complaint - that he dove with her instead of getting her to shovel money into your till? On what basis?

IMHO you have some self-examination to do here. Jason might not be the best diver you've seen, and he may not have been diving for a very long time, but if you deemed his experience adequate to enter into your DM program, then you did. At that point you have called him "ready" from a mastery-of-skills perspective - so any rip on him about that aspect of things is, in fact, a rip on YOU.