Shorter duration, fewer hours, less intensive, at least compared to my experience, NASDS 1972.
Dive operator age limits?
- Thread starter ABay Diver
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When I was certified it was definitely decades ago....... My course was 8 weeks and intensive. All academics were in the classroom and fully interactive. Pool sessions were long and intensive......All pool work was done in full 7mm rental wetsuits, gloves, boots, hoods, weight-belts, etc. We used octo's but Buddy breathing was still being taught.
My instructor was fair but definitely demanding. Military guy. His definitions and interpretations of the terms "mastery" and "proficiency" were at a very high level. Not everyone passed the course.
Fast forward to the 90's when I became an instructor. Started out OK with 2 and 3 week courses, but by the time 2002 rolled around the PADI shop I taught for started doing weekend courses for $99. Other than some follow-up, testing, etc......all academics were done alone at home on a computer. Instructors were paid more $$ for students who passed than students who didn't. Same amount of work. Show up on Friday evening with ZERO experience and walk away on Sunday afternoon with an OW certification.
The weekend warrior classes were what drove me away from teaching.
Let me respond first to the academic issue, because I was a career educator, including being the Executive Director for Curriculum of one of the largest educational companies in the world. What you describe in your personal certification experience is the least effective way to offer instruction. The home study method you mock is much more effective.
I started teaching during the home study era, and I taught hundreds of students that way. Then our shop switched to online instruction. Students would come in having completed the online work, and I would go over things to make sure there were no major problems before administering the exam. I think it was about my 12th student before I had anyone miss a single question on the exam. The students who learned online understood the academics far better than the ones who had learned through home study, and the ones who had learned trough home study were better prepared than those who had learned through classroom presentation.
Next, you are talking with your classroom experience about one instructor in one class, and you are implying that what you got then was typical of all classes then and better than all classes now. How can you know that? In their History of NAUI, NAUI founders Al Tillman et. al. said that they knew that from the very beginning there was a big difference in what was expected of students in their training, and many students were certified without even completing the class. Some, in fact, were certified without even taking the class.
So are you are arguing that the "newer generation of ins divers" is anyone certified in the last half century?
John...... I think my use of the term "instant" was a bit inaccurate......so I appreciate your response. My point was only that my own personal experiences and observations have lead me personally to believe that the later generation courses are not as robust. On trips, I see certified divers these days that I personally believe would not have passed the OW course that I took.
And I agree with you that I am wrong to just unilaterally bundle or compare all current courses with a weekend course that I personally felt was lacking.
And I agree with you that I am wrong to just unilaterally bundle or compare all current courses with a weekend course that I personally felt was lacking.
Belzelbub
Contributor
My OW course was very different than yours. I suspect the main difference in quality of instruction for you compared to mine was in the instructor. Not so much in when it happened.
My OW course was in 1990. It involved reading the OW Sport Diver Manual in advance of the classroom portion. During the classroom portion there was some instruction around the material, but most was around how to use the tables and how to log a dive and repetitive dives, etc. Pool sessions were non-existent. I don't mean that they were rushed, we never did anything in or near a pool. The checkout dives were pretty much just as bad. I did actually get wet though, but the entirety of my checkout dives were done on a single day. We may have done two "dives" on that day, but I'm not positive. Max depth was maybe 10', but I think it was more like 8'. We just did regulator retrievals, mask clearing, etc. in murky water on our knees.
My 2nd OW course (since the first was so poor) was completely different. 6 week course over the summer at a University. Each week there was an academic lecture on the assigned reading, and 2 lab courses. The labs were about 3 hours long each day. The first 45 minutes to 1 hour were spent going over the academics. The rest of the time was spent in a pool. I spent more time at depth the first week of this course than I spent in my entire first OW course.
My daughters were certified in 2015 and 2018. Their classes were more typical than either of mine. Online learning in advance, academic review with the instructor and the written test. From there it was in the pool. A minimum of 4 pool sessions were needed, but there was an extra day scheduled if required, and the instructor really made sure they were comfortable before going on to the checkout dives.
This definitely supports my suspicions.
That is probably true. You describe a militaristic approach with your instructor. That was common in the early days of scuba instruction, where many instructors had learned to dive in the military. There are stories from those days of divers having to be able to do a certain number of pushups while wearing full gear, for example. This was often described as typica NAUI instruction. Go back enough years in ScubaBoard threads and you will find threads in which old time NAUI instructors absolutely deny that this was the norm.
When NAUI was formed in Houston in a gathering of instructors in 1960, people like Al Tillman were shocked to see some of them harassing students by shutting off their air, ripping their masks off, etc. They felt that the instructors were getting a lot more out of it (fun) than the students. That sort of stuff was allowed when the organization was made, but it was not a normal part of the course and absolutely not required.
People who went through such classes should not assume that everyone taught that way back then.
I read an article years ago in which one of the leaders of an agency (I can't remember which) talked about the revelation he had when he heard a group of instructors bragging about how great their classes were, and their evidence of greatness was the large number of students who failed their classes. The revelation was that it was the job of an instructor to teach people effectively enough that they passed the class, and having a high number of people fail your class was not something to brag about. That began the modern method of teaching the student however long it takes until the student passes.
By the way, the History of NAUI mentioned earlier offered the opinion that the average student completing an OW course today is a better diver than the average instructors who formed NAUI in the 1960s.
About a dozen years ago, someone joined ScubaBoard and was with us for less than a year. He was a relatively new DM working for a dive shop somewhere, helping with classes. In one post, he generalized to all scuba classes based on what he saw in the classes for which he was an assistant. In it, he said that in a typical scuba class, one or more students will decide that scuba is not for them and quit during the class.
He truly believed that was typical of all instruction, and he had trouble believing when others said that, no, students quitting during class is not normal, and if it happens a lot, there is something wrong with how that class is being taught. He remained convinced that the way his shop taught was the way it should be done.
So, if that is one's idea of good instruction, then I can see why you would not like the way things are today.
He truly believed that was typical of all instruction, and he had trouble believing when others said that, no, students quitting during class is not normal, and if it happens a lot, there is something wrong with how that class is being taught. He remained convinced that the way his shop taught was the way it should be done.
So, if that is one's idea of good instruction, then I can see why you would not like the way things are today.
Scubagermany
Contributor
May I ask what is usually required in an OWD course in the US?
How about captains and DMs over 70? Not uncommon for me.
OP
ABay Diver
Contributor
What is this RSTC form thats been mentioned above? Anybody got a link to one?
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