Dive buddy for air? No thanks.

[Thalassamania]

Doc, let's take it one more step.

If I dive no deeper than 5 feet do I need an auxiliary source of gas?

How about ten feet?

How about 30 feet?

How about 60 feet?

How about 130 feet?

Where does the line get drawn?

If it gets drawn a the depth that I comfortable making a free ascent from, what if I'm comfortable with a 5 foot free ascent, a 10 footer, 30 footer, a 60 footer, a 130 footer? Why would I use a failure prone equipment based solution rather than my own training and skills, unless I venture deeper than that line?

 

[seaducer]

Gas management does not preclude the use of redundant gas sources. But what I believe the consensus is responding with is that proper gas management ought to be the foundation, the initial process taught to new divers - not the use of an additional item of equipment.

Nor the reliance on a buddy as an alternate air source.

Plan your dive, watch your gas supply, and prepare for equipment malfunctions with the most appropriate redundancy. With few exceptions OOA situations are entirely preventable, and that is the best way to deal with them, by preventing them.

 

[seaducer]

In aviation there is a thing called the Practical Test Standards. The FAA puts it out and it contains the Standards the student applying for a certificate must meet. How the student meets these standards is mostly irrelevant, they just have to meet the standard. Is there something similar in diving?

If I am understanding you correctly, no. For OOA scenarios most agencies will have you teach air sharing and CESA, not pony bottles. The best you can hope for is to show them the equipment if you or a DM has it, but that is about it. You will not be able to test them on it, nor will they have the option to test that method as opposed to air sharing with a buddy and CESA drills.

I feel strongly that "Why?" and "Is this the best way?" are very important questions in any profession or sport that involve risk especially for an Instructor.

Indeed they are. And hopefully the posters here have given you some information to chew on for awhile.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

Doc, let's take it one more step.

...Why would I use a failure prone equipment based solution rather than my own training and skills, unless I venture deeper than that line?

Thal,

Based on reading most of all you posted on the board, I think we might probably agree that there is no line.

It's all just diving.

You plan a gas plan if you're doing a night dive for shell collecting in 8 fsw for a couple hours, or for a dive to 350 fsw to visit a wreck.

Based on your gas plan, you select whatever equipment you need to keep the dive safe...safe as defined by your personal planning parameters.

But its the gas plan that determines what equipment you need - not the reverse.

You don't start by selecting sling tanks to take because you might need them.

I think thats the entire focus with regard to process-based solutions rather than equipment-based solutions - the pre-dive phase AND dive execution is always going to require the use of your training and skills.

(At least thats how I've always understood your ideas!)

Doc

 

[Kydonia]

Great thought-provoking thread.. thanks everyone.
How many breaths can you get from a 3.0 Spare Air unit if you are OOA at 100 feet and begin a safe ascent (at or slower than 60 ft/min) ?

(Just curious... I would always swim towards a buddy first)

 

[Thalassamania]

This is one of those moments that I find my thinking in flux, a bunch of new things all at the same time, and I'm playing with some interesting syntheses. Thanks for the help, you've been instrumental in supplying some critical components.

I'm poking about at the intersection of diver experience levels, equipment vs skill solutions, risk compensation with respect to gear changes and skill changes ... I can't wait to see how if comes out.

 

[tna9001]

Great thought-provoking thread.. thanks everyone.
How many breaths can you get from a 3.0 Spare Air unit if you are OOA at 100 feet and begin a safe ascent (at or slower than 60 ft/min) ?

(Just curious... I would always swim towards a buddy first)

Don't know about the breath thing but Spare Air 3.0 fully charged = an 80 cft tank at 112.5 psi.:shocked2:

Tank Volume

 

[drdaddy]

I am always a safer diver when diving with a buddy. What I mean by this is that I have accepted responsibility for another so I watch them carefully. I carefully monitor their and my air. And I am available for help with entanglements and I also watch for signs of panic or trouble.

The bummer I sometimes have is that I've had buddies that aren't so careful and get "lost" and more than one has bolted for the surface as he panicked. Kinda ruined my dive as I surfaced and kept looking for him. One knothead had gone up and then back down again and then kept moving on as I was worriedly searching for bubbles (yes, we had established before the dive "what do do if we got separated" - he didn't do it!). This is an example of why sometimes buddies are a pain - because I am responsible for them. Also, if they do something stupid like bolt for the top, I won't follow - sometimes, especially if I'm deep enough, I will do a safety stop and then come up looking for them - sure ruins that dive!!! When possible, I carry a pony 13 cuft for 50 ft and less, and 19 cuft for around 100 ft. This along with a buddy should take care of most (hopefully all) OOA situations. But, as I said before, OOA situations simply don't happen when buddying because we are watching out for one another.

Oh, by the way, it's really dumb to "plan on running OOA" and using a pony bottle for a whole lot of reasons. And just a reminder, a pony is not hooked up to your BCD, so no easy inflation. Try this out - While diving at depth practice inflating your BCD from your pony to your lungs to your BCD and you'll see what I mean.

drdaddy

 

[Web Monkey]

I feel strongly that "Why?" and "Is this the best way?" are very important questions in any profession or sport that involve risk especially for an Instructor.

FWIW, if the instructor has done his job, there will be no more qualified donors for an OOA on the planet.

By the time they get to OW, the students have shared air with the instructor and each other many, many times and are used to having someone come up to them and signal OOA.

If the students can't handle that, they don't belong in OW yet.

Now what happens after OW is a different story. Many go off Someplace Warm for vacation and then don't dive again for years. By that time pretty much all their skills are lost.

Terry

 

[Thalassamania]

FWIW, if the instructor has done his job, there will be no more qualified donors for an OOA on the planet.

By the time they get to OW, the students have shared air with the instructor and each other many, many times and are used to having someone come up to them and signal OOA.

If the students can't handle that, they don't belong in OW yet.

Research suggests 17 repetitions of air sharing are required to have 90% confidence that students will actually be able to do it.