Disturbing trend in diving?

[boulderjohn]

As others havr said, I have seen this kind of diving being done since I was certified.

I haven't been diving that long, I only got certified in 1998, but we did learn tables and they hammered them into our heads.

Yep, I had it hammered into my head, too. Then I went on my very first DM led dive in Cozumel. I tried to use the tables after that dive and saw that I was in total violation of them already. Someone on the boat, looking at me in amusement, said, "It makes a decent frisbee."

I got a computer as soon as I was back home.

'm just curious, is this part of OW training now at these locales to not need any personal data where you guys claim this is commonplace? Are they teaching "Just follow the guide"?

I was a PADI instructor, and it's not taught in OW training (at least officially--I can't guarantee some rogue instructor isn't doing it). I fact, I am pretty sure the course never even mentions following a DM on a dive. The course teaches independent diving.

However, what I had students tell me many times is that their already-certified friends told them they only had to learn dive planning for the class. Once they were in "the real world," all that is done by the DM. For many people, that is true. I would guess that there are many people with hundreds of dives who have done everyone of them trailing an instructor and going wherever he or she goes.

I am sure it does not take too many DM-led dives before new divers have completely forgotten what they were taught.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Indeed. Telling people they're to incompetent to dive, and that they need to stay behind rather than impressing you into being their divemaster, is a toughie. Tough love.

...and the fact that they were missing some critical pieces of dive gear (and the knowledge to use it) to be able to dive safely. I don't know of any California Divemasters that would have taken two such people on any guided dive, paid or not.
You 'ain't in Cozumel any more Dorothy!

 

[boulderjohn]

As someone who's still very much new to diving, I feel that you could be trained in a computer and have an excellent "core understanding" of time and depth. I don't see any reason why proper learning about dive computers would give a different core understanding than that of tables.

You can absolutely teach as much "core understanding" without tables as you can with them. I taught with tables for years, and I taught with computers for years. I taught decompression theory, then I taught how to manage decompression, either with tables or with a computer. If anything, the ones who learned in the computer learning had a better understanding of decompression theory than the ones who learned with tables, because I had gotten much better at teaching it by then.

Mark Powell wrote an entire book (Deco for Divers) on decompression theory, and he was somehow able to do it without teaching how to use tables.

 

[The Chairman]

Pardon me, but I'm a little flabbergasted.

Hi, Flabbergasted, welcome to the 21st century. Committing to a hobby is so last century. Now they want to do a bit of everything, aka 'experiences', without learning more than they absolutely need to. They're OK with guides but not with spending the time needed to learn independence.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

...Yep, I had it hammered into my head, too. Then I went on my very first DM led dive in Cozumel. I tried to use the tables after that dive and saw that I was in total violation of them already. Someone on the boat, looking at me in amusement, said, "It makes a decent frisbee."
I got a computer as soon as I was back home.

Let's not turn this into a table vs computer thread.
Yes I know all about tables not working where computers will do all the multi level calculations and not bench you.
My point was that the table hammering instilled a discipline that made it important and critical for divers to know what their profiles are. They hammered them because it was a manual learning method with pencil and paper, and unless you hammered the info (simply by the time it took) people did't get it. You needed to be able to run the flow to get your answers. With computers you just look at your NDL time remaining and follow it, the computer does everything else.
After that vacation you went straight home and got a computer. You knew that you needed the computer because you already knew all this depth and time stuff is important. Did any of that have anything to do with the table hammering? I think on a subliminal level it probably did.
What I'm saying is that there us a whole new group of vacation divers that have never had anything hammered into their heads, nothing, nada. Computers or not, they are just devoid of any or all of that information and I having a really tough time understanding that complacency.

I see here in SB regularly all this talk about graduent factors and algorithms and shearwaters and this and that. I figured everyone was a computer fanatic but I was wrong.

 

[jseyfert3]

I ass a PADI instructor, and it not taught in OW training (at least officially--I can't guarantee some rogue instructor isn't doing it). I fact, I am pretty sure the course never even mentions following a DM on a dive. The course teaches independent diving.

However, what I had students tell me many times is that their already-certified friends told them they only had to learn dive planning for the class. Once they were in "the real world," all that is done by the DM. For many people, that is true. I would guess that there are many people with hundreds of dives who have done everyone of them trailing an instructor and going wherever he or she goes.

I have my PADI OW book with me, as I was recently reviewing it after not diving for a while before a trip to San Diego a week ago. I flipped it open just now, and in section 3, where it talks about boat diving, it talks about planning/discussing the dive with your dive buddies. The only time it seemed to mention a divemaster was when it talked about if you have special equipment like a camera, you might enter the water first and then have the captain/divemaster hand you your equipment once you get in the water.

You can absolutely teach as much "core understanding" without tables as you can with them. I taught with tables for years, and I taught with computers for years. I taught decompression theory, then I taught how to manage decompression, either with tables or with a computer. If anything, the ones who learned in the computer learning had a better understanding of decompression theory than the ones who learned with tables, because I had gotten much better at teaching it by then.

Mark Powell wrote an entire book (Deco for Divers) on decompression theory, and he was somehow able to do it without teaching how to use tables.

When I got certified in 2016, my instructor had me use PADI's eRDPml (a basic calculator looking device that was just an electronic version of the tables), but either he or the divemaster helping him said nobody really uses tables anymore. I'm actually not sure why we were taught it if that's what they thought, my OW manual seems to indicate that teaching just a computer would be allowed. Perhaps they were thinking that tables taught it better? Or they didn't want to update their training materials?

My current partner got PADI OW certified in late 2023, and the dive shop we picked taught her the printed tables, which did surprise me. Not that I think there's anything really wrong with that, but I do tend more towards teaching/learning what you will actually be using is better overall. When I was in school for my B.S. in Mechanical Engineering, I thought that they should teach us "Calculus for engineers" not general calculus. I don't need to know how to prove a calculus formula, I just need to know some general calculus basics and how to work with certain calculus formulas. Actually, in the real world very few people are doing any calculus these days, and me and a coworker agreed more training with computer programs like 3D CAD programs and the like would have been much more valuable than some of the other courses we had to take. I'm getting a bit off topic, but it's actually not that far off. It's still more about learning "the basics" by hand, when what we really needed to know was the appropriate way to use a computer that's doing "the basics" for us (while still understanding the basics, to know what the computer is doing, just not getting into the nitty-gritty of doing it by hand).

Anyway, all that said, my recent research to understand what people on here on SB were talking about with terms like "surfGF" was much more along the lines of how you would teach diving with a computer and gaining "core understanding" about NDL and decompression in general, and would certainly fit easily into an OW course IMO. My current computer, a Suunto Zoop, doesn't have surfGF since it's running RBGM. But also because I'm an engineer I intutivily understand graphs that contain surfGF. (Well, maybe I'm an engineer because I intuitivily understand graphs like that....)

 

[MntryDvr]

It really is kind of an appalling practice, and this can be particularly true in a situation where a diver is required to buddy up and neither has a computer, depth gauge, or bottom timer. The buddy relationship carries with it a reciprocal implied obligation of trust and responsibility (obviously not always honored,, but that's an entirely different discussion), which means that you end up relying on your divemaster/holder of the sacred instruments for both your own safety and that of your buddy. And if things go south and your buddy is hurt, who do you think is going to get or at a minimum share the blame? "But the divemaster had everything under control" isn't going to cut it. We always have an obligation of safety to both ourselves and our buddies.

 

[David Haas]

This is a funny thread being Eric (said with understanding) you are surprised by this common happening......

Let's see if I can summarize some thoughts.......

Training.......PADI gets bashed but I have seen crap instructors from NAUI, SSI, NASDS (long gone), SDI, and such. Not so much CMAS or other European agencies and I'm unsure if the culture of not getting any rating / certification until you really proved your skills is why (???)

Tables.......Ages ago (I started in 1969) this was taught with an understanding of N2 in the AIR to breathe. How, what, why, etc. Now a computer does that all for you and is much more dynamic. It is probably the greatest advancement for sport divers ever but today's are way too complicated for the casual and even somewhat experienced SPORT diver IMHO.....

Self reliance.......Diving is just expensive enough Joe working class (me) unless a nice ocean, lake, pond, mud puddle is accessible means traveling somewhere to dive. At 99% of top places in the world you dive with the guide. It's their back yard, they'll find more than you to observe, photograph and have a good timeunless you're going to a super cheap or sketchy operation. They'll also almost always find the boat LOL..... Self reliance for the typical vacation diver means barely swimming, breathing, etc. MAYBE reading and following their computer.

In the last 20+ years I've never been on a day dive boat or live-aboard where you're permitted to dive without a computer. Don't have one? Here, we're renting you one and charging you......

Gear........My opinion is most SPORT divers splash with stuff that's way too cumbersome and confusing. People who just want to go see pretty fish, maybe shallow shipwrecks (during summer here in the Great Lakes) or any dives above 100' hear people yakking about gradient factors, long decompression dives deeper 100' plus and turn their brains off.......

I personally know folks pursing deep dives I'm amazed they're still alive In terrible physical shape, older (I'm there) and think their wallet and knowledge will keep them safe.....

Hence it's no surprise people assume a guide will be leading them for an enjoyable paid experience.......

Not sayin' it's the way it should be but it is the norm especially at worldwide dive locations such as the Caribbean, Asia, Red Sea, Maldives, Indonesia, etc.

Like Nemrod I've grown comfortable with services that make my diving easier. I still check my own BCD strap is the right height and tight, gas is all the way ON and tank full, mask and fins straps OK and tight, computer starts up before I splash, etc.

I follow the guide like his shadow who finds critters and sights easily making every dive more enjoyable.

If I suck my NITROX a bit faster I tell him well in advance so he can start up shallower plus do a 5 min safety stop on dive 1 or dive 32 on a trip. Communicating with them why I'm doing so reassures them I'm at least trying to dive like I'm independent.

Back in the day clubs would have old salts taking newbies under their wing showing them how to dive easier, safer, etc. Now liability concerns no matter what those waivers you sign (especially here in the US) are toilet paper. Lawyers (I have several lawyer friends) tell me any can be challenged for a settlement somewhere / somehow.....Overseas a bit harder if not impossible to collect. I'm certainly not advocating negligence, just saying what exists in today's world.....

This concern makes diving solo if allowed more attractive.......Until the diver is overdue and someone has to go find them in the kelp bed, on the wreck, or wherever......Then the blame game starts (who let him dive alone? Didn't they know OLD that diver was? Blah blah blah.......) This can lead to more restrictive dive offerings which no one likes

I don't know the answer....

Many here have voiced how they try and help newbies understand what / why / how they can dive safely. Maybe that's a good idea if we all politely tried to help......

We might have more participating divers who are confident in their own abilities!

David Haas

 

[The Chairman]

Many here have voiced how they try and help newbies understand what / why / how they can dive safely. Maybe that's a good idea if we all politely tried to help......

Nope. I keep my mouth shut unless they ask. If I see something that's patently unsafe, I'll ask if they want my opinion, and abide by their desire. I've experienced the 'know-it-all' and do not want to be seen as one.

 

[Belzelbub]

Many here have voiced how they try and help newbies understand what / why / how they can dive safely. Maybe that's a good idea if we all politely tried to help......

We might have more participating divers who are confident in their own abilities.

Helping newbies is absolutely something I’d be willing to do. To a point.

In the example posed by @Scuba Lawyer the couple did not sound like they wanted help. Unless that help was in the form of a Divemaster taking them on a dive. If I’m a paying customer, I’m not going to be a DM for a couple who seems to be in over their head.

If you have no desire to dive without a DM, that’s fine. Just get the Scuba Diver cert instead of Open Water Diver. If you went through OWD and got the cert, you should at least be able to do a dive without a DM.