Disturbing trend in diving?

[Stoo]

But maybe alot of folks just need to know the final rule, without the underlying theory? Or would that undercut their following the rule?

When I was actively teaching many years ago ('78 - '05 or so) we still ran eight, two-hour sessions in the classroom, followed by 90 minutes of pool time, then a weekend of open water diving. Even at that, I really only touched the surface, but to this day, I feel like we birthed some knowledgeable divers. A bunch of my students are still friends to this day.

PADI came in to Canada about the same time as I started teaching and over the years, they reduced to requirements to get someone certified but replaced that with multiple courses to keep up the training. It seemed like a good plan, especially from the shop's perspective, since you can keep extracting money from the same people, but more importantly, you keep those same people coming back for supervised dives, which should help with keeping them involved. The problem comes when people don't keep coming back, since there is no solid base knowledge. It also became increasingly difficult for what had become "old-school" instructors to offer a competitively-priced SCUBA course. The programmes weren't remotely comparable, but to the couple signing up for a class, they had no idea whet the difference was. Ultimately that led me to retire.

Clearly PADI has come to dominate the world of recreational training, and most other agencies have come to adopt similar training approaches.

I've believed for the long time, that a happy-medium would be a good option... less than 8 weeks, but more than a few hours in front of a TV...

 

[dmaziuk]

But maybe alot of folks just need to know the final rule, without the underlying theory?

Where I work that approach is called cargo-culting and we now even have computers do it for us and we call it "AI revolution".

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

When I was actively teaching many years ago ('78 - '05 or so) we still ran eight, two-hour sessions in the classroom, followed by 90 minutes of pool time, then a weekend of open water diving. Even at that, I really only touched the surface, but to this day, I feel like we birthed some knowledgeable divers. A bunch of my students are still friends to this day.

PADI came in to Canada about the same time as I started teaching and over the years, they reduced to requirements to get someone certified but replaced that with multiple courses to keep up the training. It seemed like a good plan, especially from the shop's perspective, since you can keep extracting money from the same people, but more importantly, you keep those same people coming back for supervised dives, which should help with keeping them involved. The problem comes when people don't keep coming back, since there is no solid base knowledge. It also became increasingly difficult for what had become "old-school" instructors to offer a competitively-priced SCUBA course. The programmes weren't remotely comparable, but to the couple signing up for a class, they had no idea whet the difference was. Ultimately that led me to retire.

Clearly PADI has come to dominate the world of recreational training, and most other agencies have come to adopt similar training approaches.

I've believed for the long time, that a happy-medium would be a good option... less than 8 weeks, but more than a few hours in front of a TV...

I started a post years ago about "Scuba Certification, is it really necessary?"
It went sort of viral and was also discussed on a scuba radio podcast (never listened to it), but the whole point of the post was to get a line of critical thinking going to examine where we are now with instruction and what is really necessary.
My initial comments challenged the whole institution of scuba instruction and how it's handled now. My point was that somebody motivated enough could indeed self teach themselves all the theory from books, do all the prescribed pool skills, ocean skills, etc, buy all their gear, buy a compressor, buy a boat (if needed) and start diving, There are no scuba police to stop them.
The fury that caused was deafening, but my point was that the way things are now they are only being taught barely enough so they can have an experience, so maybe if they taught themselves they would be a little more thorough and take it a little more seriously.
The only thing you obviously can't do is get on a charter boat or rent gear unless you have a card.
Anyway, there have been people who dive who had never had an "official" class, but managed to know the rules, have comfort in the water, and survive just fine. There were some old timers here that were that way.

 

[Stoo]

There were some old timers here that were that way.

I'm not quite that person, but 51 years and 6000 dives in, I have fewer certifications than most people I know. I did a basic (but thorough) class, got invited to help in the pool, became an AI within a year and an Instructor in four. Since then, I kinda did an advanced nitrox (read the book, went diving with my long-time buddy, got the card) and long after I'd retired from teaching, another instructor friend gave me a solo card which I wanted for a liveaboard. Thankfully, I have a couple of friends that have their own blending stations, so for the odd mix dive I still do, I can get it from them, but there's also a couple of shops I deal with that will as well... my friend is way less expensive though.

I still find it laughable, some of the courses being offered these days...

I've maintained for decades that diving isn't "hard". If it was, there would be corpses bobbing up the surface every weekend.

 

[therookie]

instructor friend gave me a solo card which I wanted for a liveaboard

There are indeed other ways to demonstrate competence besides taking the courses offered by the agencies...

Reminded me of this post (#8) in another thread:
Advanced card issued on the spot

 

[Stoo]

There are indeed other ways to demonstrate competence besides taking the courses offered by the agencies...

Reminded me of this post (#8) in another thread:
Advanced card issued on the spot

Absolutely. And he was well aware that I likely logged 1500+ solo dives

 

[OMyMyOHellYes]

Try to follow along. Remember the no solo diving rule?

What is the no solo diving rule?

 

[scubadada]

I only have a few over 2400 dives since 1997. I started solo diving in about 2004 with operators who knew me. I did SDI Solo in 2013 to increase the number of operators who would allow me to solo dive. I have about 700 solo dives. My highest PADI certification is Rescue and that was in 2005. I have been doing light deco for about 20 years and about 5% of my dives are light deco. I toyed with the idea of doing AN/DP but decided it was just not worth the time for the diving I do. I dive only single back mount with a pony. My initial certification was in 1970 by LA County. I did a couple hundred dives in So CA up until 1980. Those were a bit more old school with a steel 72, single reg, I did have a SPG from 1972 on.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I'll say this one last time. I never said nor implied that there was a successful outcome for the plaintiff. No clue where you got the idea that I did and why you persist and deny despite me clearly pointing out your error and posting links to several examples of lawsuits involving buddies including a screenshot of a case. I can't possibly be more clear.

let it go already

 

[boulderjohn]

Once again, I never said nor implied that there was a successful outcome for the plaintiff in a buddy diving lawsuit. No clue where you got the idea that I did and why you persist and deny despite me clearly pointing out your error and posting links to several examples of lawsuits involving buddies including a screenshot of a case.

Where in the quote did I specify a successful outcome? Note where I wrote, "You still have not provided a single example of a randomly assigned buddy being sued, successfully or unsuccessfully."

You did not post any example of "randomly selected" buddies.

Your screenshot was a fragment of an example that I examined in detail to show that it was not what you were claiming it to be. They were not randomly selected buddies.

This very frustrating discussion, with all your bobbing and weaving, has had a definite benefit, at least for me. When you first wrote about multiple lawsuits in America over randomly selected buddies, I was pretty sure that there was no such thing. Now I am not only absolutely convinced there was no such thing, I am convinced there is nothing to worry about with being a buddy of any kind (other than a professional with a duty to care).