Disturbing trend in diving?

[boulderjohn]

I already provided links above and a screenshot of one case in particular where two previously unknown aka "random" buddies were involved in an accident and one was sued.

Diver Sued for Abandoning Buddy: Undercurrent 03/2004

I can't possibly be any clearer. But since you can't be bothered to do your own research, here's some more examples for you that I found in a quick search. Before you try to correct me, please allow me to point out that the examples in this particular article pertain to buddies who knew each other so they did not qualify as "instabuddies" but they do show the liability involved with being paired with another diver.

in Dao v. Shipway, an unpublished decision, a California judge granted summary judgment to a buddy because the friends were “engaged in a voluntary, active sport with inherent risks” of which the victim was aware. Although Doug Shipway (1) had been diving with his partner for years knowing he was not certified, (2) provided him tanks, (3) failed to follow the buddy system and (4) did not go back under water to search and waited an hour to call for emergency assistance, he was not responsible for his buddy’s death.

Your Liability as a Buddy: Undercurrent 03/2002

The first case you cited was one I discussed in detail in Post #341. It does not support your case, as I explained.

The second one focuses on another case that was also covered in the previous document and does not support your case.

You still have not provided a single example of a randomly assigned buddy being sued, successfully or unsuccessfully.

If the second article had been submitted to me while I was teaching how to write research papers, I would have found it very deficient. It is clear that the author was desperately trying to prove that dive buddies are at serious risk for liability in a diving accident but could not make the evidence support it. Part of the article is devoted to trying to explain why the evidence does not support it despite the opinion that it should. You will find the same thing in that first document you cited--the author tries to explain why there isn't much evidence to support the thesis.

 

[Stoo]

There's some SCUBA "influencer-wannabe" who was advocating that PADI should eliminate all theory from entry level courses. That's an impediment to getting people in to the sport. Save it for advanced level programmes.

Seems like a solid plan to me.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

There's some SCUBA "influencer-wannabe" who was advocating that PADI should eliminate all theory from entry level courses. That's an impediment to getting people in to the sport. Save it for advanced level programmes.

Seems like a solid plan to me.

Maybe we should just go back to enclosing a little instruction card in the regulator box saying "Don't hold your breath" and call it good?

 

[Chavodel8en]

There's some SCUBA "influencer-wannabe" who was advocating that PADI should eliminate all theory from entry level courses. That's an impediment to getting people in to the sport. Save it for advanced level programmes.

Seems like a solid plan to me.

This is an interesting topic worthy of discussion. I enjoyed what little theory provided in classes, and having a basic understanding why i should pay attention to NDL, and why Nitrox has depth limits.

But maybe alot of folks just need to know the final rule, without the underlying theory? Or would that undercut their following the rule?

 

[Stoo]

But maybe alot of folks just need to know the final rule, without the underlying theory? Or would that undercut their following the rule?

When I was actively teaching many years ago ('78 - '05 or so) we still ran eight, two-hour sessions in the classroom, followed by 90 minutes of pool time, then a weekend of open water diving. Even at that, I really only touched the surface, but to this day, I feel like we birthed some knowledgeable divers. A bunch of my students are still friends to this day.

PADI came in to Canada about the same time as I started teaching and over the years, they reduced to requirements to get someone certified but replaced that with multiple courses to keep up the training. It seemed like a good plan, especially from the shop's perspective, since you can keep extracting money from the same people, but more importantly, you keep those same people coming back for supervised dives, which should help with keeping them involved. The problem comes when people don't keep coming back, since there is no solid base knowledge. It also became increasingly difficult for what had become "old-school" instructors to offer a competitively-priced SCUBA course. The programmes weren't remotely comparable, but to the couple signing up for a class, they had no idea whet the difference was. Ultimately that led me to retire.

Clearly PADI has come to dominate the world of recreational training, and most other agencies have come to adopt similar training approaches.

I've believed for the long time, that a happy-medium would be a good option... less than 8 weeks, but more than a few hours in front of a TV...

 

[dmaziuk]

But maybe alot of folks just need to know the final rule, without the underlying theory?

Where I work that approach is called cargo-culting and we now even have computers do it for us and we call it "AI revolution".

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

When I was actively teaching many years ago ('78 - '05 or so) we still ran eight, two-hour sessions in the classroom, followed by 90 minutes of pool time, then a weekend of open water diving. Even at that, I really only touched the surface, but to this day, I feel like we birthed some knowledgeable divers. A bunch of my students are still friends to this day.

PADI came in to Canada about the same time as I started teaching and over the years, they reduced to requirements to get someone certified but replaced that with multiple courses to keep up the training. It seemed like a good plan, especially from the shop's perspective, since you can keep extracting money from the same people, but more importantly, you keep those same people coming back for supervised dives, which should help with keeping them involved. The problem comes when people don't keep coming back, since there is no solid base knowledge. It also became increasingly difficult for what had become "old-school" instructors to offer a competitively-priced SCUBA course. The programmes weren't remotely comparable, but to the couple signing up for a class, they had no idea whet the difference was. Ultimately that led me to retire.

Clearly PADI has come to dominate the world of recreational training, and most other agencies have come to adopt similar training approaches.

I've believed for the long time, that a happy-medium would be a good option... less than 8 weeks, but more than a few hours in front of a TV...

I started a post years ago about "Scuba Certification, is it really necessary?"
It went sort of viral and was also discussed on a scuba radio podcast (never listened to it), but the whole point of the post was to get a line of critical thinking going to examine where we are now with instruction and what is really necessary.
My initial comments challenged the whole institution of scuba instruction and how it's handled now. My point was that somebody motivated enough could indeed self teach themselves all the theory from books, do all the prescribed pool skills, ocean skills, etc, buy all their gear, buy a compressor, buy a boat (if needed) and start diving, There are no scuba police to stop them.
The fury that caused was deafening, but my point was that the way things are now they are only being taught barely enough so they can have an experience, so maybe if they taught themselves they would be a little more thorough and take it a little more seriously.
The only thing you obviously can't do is get on a charter boat or rent gear unless you have a card.
Anyway, there have been people who dive who had never had an "official" class, but managed to know the rules, have comfort in the water, and survive just fine. There were some old timers here that were that way.

 

[Stoo]

There were some old timers here that were that way.

I'm not quite that person, but 51 years and 6000 dives in, I have fewer certifications than most people I know. I did a basic (but thorough) class, got invited to help in the pool, became an AI within a year and an Instructor in four. Since then, I kinda did an advanced nitrox (read the book, went diving with my long-time buddy, got the card) and long after I'd retired from teaching, another instructor friend gave me a solo card which I wanted for a liveaboard. Thankfully, I have a couple of friends that have their own blending stations, so for the odd mix dive I still do, I can get it from them, but there's also a couple of shops I deal with that will as well... my friend is way less expensive though.

I still find it laughable, some of the courses being offered these days...

I've maintained for decades that diving isn't "hard". If it was, there would be corpses bobbing up the surface every weekend.

 

[therookie]

instructor friend gave me a solo card which I wanted for a liveaboard

There are indeed other ways to demonstrate competence besides taking the courses offered by the agencies...

Reminded me of this post (#8) in another thread:
Advanced card issued on the spot

 

[Stoo]

There are indeed other ways to demonstrate competence besides taking the courses offered by the agencies...

Reminded me of this post (#8) in another thread:
Advanced card issued on the spot

Absolutely. And he was well aware that I likely logged 1500+ solo dives