Disturbing trend in diving?

[Eric Sedletzky]

Do people here think that maybe if divers had to be more personally involved with diving, instead if just wanting to experience it without any of the annoying details, they might commit more to becoming more serious about the hobby in the long term?
I always found that stuff given for free had less emotional and material value then something that I had to work for and or pay more money for.
In this case the cost would be the time of commitment (and maybe money) to learn the stuff fully and embrace the details.
If I put my whole heart and wallet into it I'd certainly want to apply that knowledge and make it pay for itself.
I remember when I certified OW I was fascinated by the tables and working them. I thought how cool it was that I had to do something that my safety and avoidance from getting bent relied on. It might sound weird, but understanding and applying these rules was empowering to me.
Everyone else couldn't wait to buy a computer as soon as they could, and eventually I did too.
Then I would read about the DIR guys doing ratio deco on the fly and they made fun of computers and claimed they were for amateurs and suckers. It made me feel stupid and lazy for buying one. That was 25 years ago now and a lot has changed.
Computers are absolutely the way to go and I'm guessing ratio deco got shot full of holes and kind of died. I'll bet most DIR divers use a computer now.
I'm just guessing.

 

[Scuba-74]

I feel it is relevant to share in this thread my recent (December) experience, where reliance on a dive guide could have ended far worse than it did.

It was in the middle of a weeklong liveaboard trip in Egypt, by that time there was an established rapport and trust between a group of 8 divers and a dive guide. We were doing the first in a series of 3 dives on the wreck of the "SS Thistlegorm". Conditions were bad, it was beginning to get dark, and there was a strong current from south to north, i.e. from the stern to the bow, opposite to what it typically is there. The dive site was new to all except 1, maybe 2 divers in the group.

In the briefing, the guide explicitly said it would be a no-penetration dive, due to conditions and the fact that we were going to do a dedicated penetration dive of the cargo holds the next day. We tied at the stern, proceeded towards the bow, with the current. My dive buddy and I were 2nd or 3d pair behind the guide. Pretty soon, before reaching the bow, the guide stops, gives/receives and OK signal from all, then penetrates the wreck, in the area, as I later learned, of the captains quarters and I guess the bridge.

We swam inside the wreck following the diver in front for maybe 10 min. Upon exiting, the first thing I see is the dive guide and a 2-3 of divers, including my dive buddy, starting to swim away from the superstructure, over the debris field amidships, while ascending at an angle. I follow. A couple of minutes later I'm in a complete blue water, the wreck is no longer visible, I can barely keep up with the group kicking against strong current in my short travel fins. Since we are ascending gradually, have to pay constant attention to the depth gauge.

Another 3 or so min later I don't see anyone or anything anymore, trying to follow the direction we were going, while kicking at full force. Pressure is about 1000psi, maybe a bit more, I'm overconsuming. A few minutes later I'm fully considering deploying an SMB and doing a drifting safety stop, where finally I see the anchor line with about 10 divers on it, blowing like flags, horizontally, in the current.

All is well that ends well. When I questioned the guide on what happened, he said one of the divers became low on air, and they had to bolt to the anchor line without communicating with the rest of the group. We never found out if there was indeed a diver that signaled him that.

Now, there are some extenuating circumstances, of course. For one, it's an advanced dive site, and everyone going there are expected to have experience and a degree of self-reliance. Also, our dive group was considered the most advanced out of the 3 groups on the trip, we always enjoyed longer and more demanding dives than the other 2 groups, and perhaps the guide would not have done what he'd done knowing that there are less experienced people in the group. But, the whole thing brought me at the edge of my comfort zone, which very rarely happens. I can see how this situation could have resulted in at least some people from the group not reaching the line and being blown away in the dusk.

 

[boulderjohn]

Do people here think that maybe if divers had to be more personally involved with diving, instead if just wanting to experience it without any of the annoying details, they might commit more to becoming more serious about the hobby in the long term?

Back in the 1990s, my wife and I enjoyed a vacation in Cozumel, during which I took a Discover Scuba class. I liked it, but I won't go beyond that. (I had taken one many years before--another story.) We also bought an unusual time share--one that wasn't a total tipoff like most--it had a finite number of coupons, so we weren't locked into the normal endless nightmare. We were planning to use it to come to Cozumel every other year. I had no plans to be certified.

Two years later our next visit was approaching, and circumstances put me in Puerto Vallarta for a week. I decided to get certified there in anticipation of going to Cozumel. That diving experience was barely satisfying, and because they skipped so many standards I was barely competent. So I arrived at Cozumel as a certified but barely competent diver with the goal of doing a few days of diving while I was there, and then repeating that minimal experience every couple of years.

So no one forced me to be "more personally involved with diving," If I had been required to do any more than that minimum I did, I would have skipped it altogether. I would still be a non-diver.

What made the difference was first my realization that I was barely qualified. I immediately took the AOW course, and doing 5 dives with an instructor did wonders for my skill level. The next difference maker was my experiences that week. I had some incredible dives. On my first post AOW dive, our group wound through the intricacies of the Palancar Caves reef, and we were joined throughout by a huge grouper and a huge angelfish, both being within arms reach of us. By the end of the week I was hooked, and we were soon planning all vacations to locations famous for diving.

 

[therookie]

If I had been required to do any more than that minimum I did, I would have skipped it altogether. I would still be a non-diver.

I will second this from my experience, probably 30-ish years after yours. Reading how some instructors that are SB members teach the OW course I invariably think "that is undoubtedly an excellent way to ensure that your students come out of that class fully autonomous, competent divers." And then my next thought is "And if that was what was required to be a scuba diver, I wouldn't be one". I did not (and still do not) have the time or the easy accesibility to instructors for that level of instruction.

We actually discussed thiswith our OW instructor (great instructor, tec diver, super qualified) - or more specifically, he discussed it with us. He said that the instruction we were receiving in the amount of time that we had available would really only qualify us to dive autonomously in conditions similar to what there is in the Bay Islands - diving in more "difficult" conditions (which is probably almost anywhere in the world compared to the southwest side of Roatan ) would require a lot of practice, better gear, time spent with well-qualified local divers/instructors familiar with those conditions, etc.

We fully agreed, and recognized that the limitations of the instruction we were receiving were not the fault of the instructor or the agency but our own lack of availability. But it was enough to get us started (honestly 10 minutes into my Discover Scuba Dive was enough to get me hooked enough to get started down this expensive road!)

So personally, I am glad that the "rules", such that they are, are not stricter. However, it certainly does open the door to less than qualified people (like me, almost anywhere in the world other than the southwest side of Roatan!) participating in this hobby/sport, perhaps to the detriment of the experience for the more qualified and experienced.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I feel it is relevant to share in this thread my recent (December) experience, where reliance on a dive guide could have ended far worse than it did.

It was in the middle of a weeklong liveaboard trip in Egypt, by that time there was an established rapport and trust between a group of 8 divers and a dive guide. We were doing the first in a series of 3 dives on the wreck of the "SS Thistlegorm". Conditions were bad, it was beginning to get dark, and there was a strong current from south to north, i.e. from the stern to the bow, opposite to what it typically is there. The dive site was new to all except 1, maybe 2 divers in the group.

In the briefing, the guide explicitly said it would be a no-penetration dive, due to conditions and the fact that we were going to do a dedicated penetration dive of the cargo holds the next day. We tied at the stern, proceeded towards the bow, with the current. My dive buddy and I were 2nd or 3d pair behind the guide. Pretty soon, before reaching the bow, the guide stops, gives/receives and OK signal from all, then penetrates the wreck, in the area, as I later learned, of the captains quarters and I guess the bridge.

We swam inside the wreck following the diver in front for maybe 10 min. Upon exiting, the first thing I see is the dive guide and a 2-3 of divers, including my dive buddy, starting to swim away from the superstructure, over the debris field amidships, while ascending at an angle. I follow. A couple of minutes later I'm in a complete blue water, the wreck is no longer visible, I can barely keep up with the group kicking against strong current in my short travel fins. Since we are ascending gradually, have to pay constant attention to the depth gauge.

Another 3 or so min later I don't see anyone or anything anymore, trying to follow the direction we were going, while kicking at full force. Pressure is about 1000psi, maybe a bit more, I'm overconsuming. A few minutes later I'm fully considering deploying an SMB and doing a drifting safety stop, where finally I see the anchor line with about 10 divers on it, blowing like flags, horizontally, in the current.

All is well that ends well. When I questioned the guide on what happened, he said one of the divers became low on air, and they had to bolt to the anchor line without communicating with the rest of the group. We never found out if there was indeed a diver that signaled him that.

Now, there are some extenuating circumstances, of course. For one, it's an advanced dive site, and everyone going there are expected to have experience and a degree of self-reliance. Also, our dive group was considered the most advanced out of the 3 groups on the trip, we always enjoyed longer and more demanding dives than the other 2 groups, and perhaps the guide would not have done what he'd done knowing that there are less experienced people in the group. But, the whole thing brought me at the edge of my comfort zone, which very rarely happens. I can see how this situation could have resulted in at least some people from the group not reaching the line and being blown away in the dusk.

This is the kind of thing I question.
You guys had experience and you knew what to do. But what about someone who might be just under the mark to be able to handle something like that on their own?
Over reliance on a dive guide could get ugly if something goes sideways.

 

[Pressurehead]

We just recently had the national championship competition in scuba here in Finland.

Is there a video of this event ?
Did a search on Dr Google and found out a lot about Suomi , but not much about this championship except this:


For what it is worth [4/5ths of 5/8ths of bugger all, I suspect] , I do not consider SCUBA diving a sport.

 

[scubadada]

Hi @Scuba-74

This was your December trip on the Tillis?

 

[Scuba-74]

Hi @Scuba-74

This was your December trip on the Tillis?

Yes, it was

 

[Scuba-74]

This is the kind of thing I question.
You guys had experience and you knew what to do. But what about someone who might be just under the mark to be able to handle something like that on their own?
Over reliance on a dive guide could get ugly if something goes sideways.

All 8 people ended up making it to the line. But they all were experienced divers. Three with just under or over a 1k dives. The least experienced diver, with about 100-120 dives was with a very seasoned buddy, a divemaster, and they ended up not penetrating the wreck at all, just hovered around the entrance/exit. I'll venture a guess that even some people on that very boat would be in distress if that happened to their group.

What about them? Based on my own personal experience, there is one or two dives in a diver's career that make or break them. And they happened to me quite a few years back. One ended with doing a decompression stop drifting in blue water. Another, with taking off my BCD at the bottom and untangling it from a flag line while solo hunting. I've learned self-reliance, and appreciation for risks, from these.

 

[Leatherboot69]

I would suggest that longer, more expensive and more complex open water training would reduce the number of people who take up diving. From what I’ve read, diving took off as a mass market when PADI modularised previously much longer training, reducing the barriers to entry for people who just want to dive casually on holiday. A tiny percentage of those will go on to become divers ‘like us’ (I guess I’m one of them… Discover Scuba Dive in Greece, 2022). If it was commercially viable and there was a market for it I assume the diver training agencies would be doing it.

Diving with a guide… I’m a DM with well over 100 dives, and I still dive with a DM when I’m on holiday (unlike home waters) because they know where everything is, or because it’s a local requirement; my wife is a casual holiday diver and she literally *only* wants to look at turtles. So yes, we play follow my leader whilst I keep an eye on my wife. I’m not the only DM or instructor I’ve met in similar circumstances - I just think it’s best not to make assumptions?

My wife is a good example of the sort of casual diver we’re talking about - she can keep herself safe, stay within NDL and not run out of air if she’s buddied up with a more experienced diver in good conditions like she was trained in, but that’s about it. She does no more than ten easy dives per year and that’s about as far as she wants to develop. *And that’s ok.*