Discussion Thread Accidents and Incident Threads: Victim Perspective

[MMM]

BOP, I think that unless we have been a participant in the death of a dive companion/buddy/friend, it is really hard to put ourselves into your position. I appreciate what you are saying and I think it is a thought we can keep in mind. But while we may empathize, none of us can truly integrate these thoughts into our normal actions without such personal experience.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

BOP, I think that unless we have been a participant in the death of a dive companion/buddy/friend, it is really hard to put ourselves into your position. I appreciate what you are saying and I think it is a thought we can keep in mind. But while we may empathise, none of us can truly integrate these thoughts into our normal actions without such personal experience.

S'trewth. Which is why I am also trying to get the "Survivors" attention. Sensitivity may be needed but the onus needs to be on the survivors to some degree as well to understand the perspective of the people trying to "Dissect their event" and their purpose in doing so.

 

[lowviz]

... Remember Hanlon's razor: "Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity"
My addendum: or cluelessness...

My lesson learned.

... 1) Get people to think of the impact of what they post. ... 2) Help the "Surviving victims" understand that the posters may say thing that are not meant to be hurtful but do hurt. That hurt is sometimes more a result of how overwhelmed and raw the survivor is and not the insensitivity of the poster. ... I hope that through the sticky and discussion here we can in reality increase the effectiveness of A & I by helping both posters and Survivors be considerate of the impact on each other.

We have discussed this several times after the incident. I have come to admire your understanding, training, and restraint and choose to add same to my future responses. As I said privately, I owe you a public apology for my initial response. As the exact incident and several specifics are not yet up for discussion by your own choosing, I feel that it is not yet time but truly know that I apologize point by point.

... I am not insensitive to your concerns but I don't feel the need to be chaperoned in an Internet chat room.

I think that you misread her a bit. Speaking as one who is all too involved, Sheila is just bringing to light the pain that secondary victims feel. If one is going to post out of pain, shock, or anger then they should be aware that their words can inflict further pain and guilt on those that least deserve it.

A secondary victim who is already second guessing "if only I had done this" and then having someone say you should have done that is just plain unfair.

And as a final observation from one who was there, the secondary victim's friends would be well advised to refrain from publicly lashing out at anyone who is uninformed. Serving a public berating from a position of inside information fosters resentment that lasts with time. It speaks to the person. Some things are best done with PM's. I am man enough to post an apology and a retraction.

 

[D_B]

Thank you for posting this Petunia
I think understand what you're getting at ... the A & I thread could be even more useful if survivors felt comfortable in posting to it by us being more mindful of them whenever WE are posting to it
you can say something, that very same something, in many ways ... that is one reason I like writing verses speaking ... I have a chance to fine tune what is coming out

 

[gypsyjim]

Thank you for posting this Petunia
I think understand what you're getting at ... the A & I thread could be even more useful if survivors felt comfortable in posting to it by us being more mindful of them whenever WE are posting to it
you can say something, that very same something, in many ways ... that is one reason I like writing verses speaking ... I have a chance to fine tune what is coming out

Speech does not have an Edit Button either, so that you can't go back and reword your thoughts, when you realize they did not come out quite the way you intended..

---------- Post added October 14th, 2014 at 12:07 PM ----------

The value of which I just proved with that last post.

 

[Bob DBF]

I also have learned a lot from A & I. We will learn more if more accurate information is provided by those involved. Some sensitivity in our posting is a small price to pay to get that information and increase the lessons learned.

This can be said of a lot of forums and threads on ScubaBoard. I have noticed the 'Go Advanced" feature where I can read what will actually be posted on the thread and found that by reading the final form, that if I am not saying what I intended when writing, I can change or delete the intended post. This has reduced my posts and probably avoided animosity towards me that I had not intended to garner.

I believe that giving involved parties a way to post without getting directly involved in the A&I thread is a commendable idea and should be implemented. I also agree with Basking Ridge Diver, that A&I / Near Misses... should be private unless signed up for after reading a well written disclaimer, possibly annually or semi-annually due to attention spans, outlining the problems we are discussing here and the fact that it is no place for condolences or members who are easily outraged. I would take Dr Lector's comments about condolences in the A&I forum one step further and suggest summarily deleting any post that include condolences from the thread, as it proves they cannot read and comprehend the forum rules at the least.

After reading the A&I section for some time, I would never choose to share any incident that I was involved with. My problem would not be with those trying to analyse the incident, but the the many that don't bother to read the thread yet feel their insight into the incident is correct, or would be correct if information they concocted was included. Although I expect no changes in human nature, I suggest that anyone who wants to post, please read the thread, stick to the subject and don't post if you have nothing relevant to add. Additionally there is no actual reason that one cannot have an insightful polite discourse on the internet, only tradition makes it otherwise.




Bob
-----------------------------------
On the Internet you can choose to be anything you want. It's strange that so many people choose to be stupid.

 

[Rich Keller]

Still, I believe that we can have our rough and tumble A&I discussions, trying to reconstruct what we think may have happened from the little info we may think we have, offer our opinions on the choices we think were being made, and try to educate fellow divers on the risks, hazards and safety concerns of this sport as we see them, while keeping it in the back of our minds that our words may have an impact on others that we are not speaking to directly.

Something can be learned from the incident reports where the person involved can tell you what happened and when so you have all the facts and a timeline to work with. The accident reports are just pure speculation, even some of the so called facts from the initial report of the accident are not what I would consider solid facts. For example: "The divers tank was empty." it could have been half full when they died and the rest of the air free flowed out after. Another example: "The diver died of a heart attack." this could have been a result of fear and panic during the course of an emergency that caused the heart attack and not the initial cause of the accident. I have never seen an accident discussed here that resolved anything and I would do away with the accident part of this section all together. The risks, hazards and safety concerns are subjects that should be throughly covered during training, not just glossed over so as not to scare people away from diving. Diving is dangerous and you accept a certain amount of risk when you choose to do this but if you are not being fully informed of the risks you can not make an informed decision that effects your life.

 

[gypsyjim]

Divers are going to discuss an accident, either here or elswhere.
Survivors will go to great lengths to try to gather insight into the event that has devastated them.

These are facts.

You can send divers elsewhere to hold their attempts to learn about, and learn from an accident, if that is what you want. To me SB is where we come to discuss ALL aspects of this sport. Accidents and deaths included.
Even if you put a lock on the door, and demand a password to enter, family and fellow divers involved will find some way to get access, in their struggle to understand.

If I add a word of condolence to a post, it is NOT because I have not read the Sticky on the door. It is because I feel we all need to be reminded that others may be reading our words, who are not dispassionate observers, and who may not always understand the debates and disagreements.

Is it a violation to remind ourselves to keep our humanity as we argue? Possibly, but I don't care. I am not turning the thread into a remembrance thread, but adding a simple touch of humility to my words.

Sorry if that offends you, but I have no intention of checking my humanity at the door.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Thank you for posting this Petunia
I think understand what you're getting at ... the A & I thread could be even more useful if survivors felt comfortable in posting to it by us being more mindful of them whenever WE are posting to it
you can say something, that very same something, in many ways ... that is one reason I like writing verses speaking ... I have a chance to fine tune what is coming out

I am too verbose! I am so worried about not getting my message across that I rephrase and elaborate too much.:doh: Now if you could just as succinctly explain the bit about wanting to help survivors understand that they also need to make sure they aren't over reacting to the posts that aren't meant to be hurtful because they are already in a world of hurt.

 

[D_B]

you just did