Discussion of best practices for advancing in cave diving (moved from A&I JB thread)

[Wibble]

With GUE, what you wrote here is not valid. When you do a Cave 2 course, you don't need to be pretty handy with jumps, line markers, and using multiple spools/reels. You just need to be pretty handy with Cave 1 skills - namely, reels, tie-offs, fundamental skills, etc. A more exhaustive list is here.

The same for Cave1, Tech1, and DPV classes - you just need to be solid with the previous level. I don't know about other courses, but I assume the situation is the same.

I cannot speak for agencies other than GUE, but I hope the situation is the same.

For example, I heard that, with the UK CDG, you constantly work with a mentor, so, again, there is no unsupervised learning.


As I have just mentioned, no, this is not how it works with GUE, and honestly, I am totally against such an approach. It's just risky, the best way to have accidents.

You first try something new with an instructor with enough experience, and then you practice.

That is another perfectly valid approach that works with some people. Stick with team learning. This can be difficult in some geographic locations.

CDG is a mentoring approach, but you don't have to dive with your mentor, you're expected to do your own diving with occasional mentoring sessions. CDG are also very self reliant and solo diver focussed, due to the type of sumps they cave in to dive in.


Have updated the previous post as I'm not wanting to tread on team toes.

 

[ginti]

That is another perfectly valid approach that works with some people. Stick with team learning. This can be difficult in some geographic locations.

CDG is a mentoring approach, but you don't have to dive with your mentor, you're expected to do your own diving with occasional mentoring sessions. CDG are also very self reliant and solo diver focussed, due to the type of sumps they cave in to dive in.


Have updated the previous post as I'm not wanting to tread on team toes.

I don't think it has to do with team diving. The approach I described is perfectly valid even for solo diving, the way I see it.

The point is how much and fast you extend your comfort zone.

If you try new things with an instructor, you extend your comfort zone safely. Then you dive quite a bit inside this extended comfort zone, and anytime you have an accident, you will be only slightly out of your comfort zone, learning something new relatively safely.

With your approach, any time you push your limits alone, you are already leaving your comfort zone, and having a problem in such a situation will bring you out of your comfort zone even more - this is just too much to manage for most people. This is why it is a no-go for me; I see it as the easiest way to die.

Sure, something bad can happen even with the first approach, but it is way less likely.

And yes, explorers and quite advanced divers push their limits without anyone supervising them - but they usually do it VERY slowly, like many big names in the industry, or they are likely to have accidents (and indeed, many of those who rush die, unfortunately).

So, again, what you are suggesting is plain dangerous, at least in my view. Then, I am not the scuba police, so feel free to do whatever you think is the best

 

[Wibble]

I don't think it has to do with team diving. The approach I described is perfectly valid even for solo diving, the way I see it.

The point is how much and fast you extend your comfort zone.

If you try new things with an instructor, you extend your comfort zone safely. Then you dive quite a bit inside this extended comfort zone, and anytime you have an accident, you will be only slightly out of your comfort zone, learning something new relatively safely.

With your approach, any time you push your limits alone, you are already leaving your comfort zone, and having a problem in such a situation will bring you out of your comfort zone even more - this is just too much to manage for most people. This is why it is a no-go for me; I see it as the easiest way to die.

Sure, something bad can happen even with the first approach, but it is way less likely.

And yes, explorers and quite advanced divers push their limits without anyone supervising them - but they usually do it VERY slowly, like many big names in the industry, or they are likely to have accidents (and indeed, many of those who rush die, unfortunately).

So, again, what you are suggesting is plain dangerous, at least in my view. Then, I am not the scuba police, so feel free to do whatever you think is the best

I'm suggesting a progressive approach, not rushing nor pushing. Am saying you can progress your skills, whilst gaining experience. Am definitely not suggesting big jumps beyond your skills; but that's the point of experience, learning where the dragons lurk.

Obviously this depends upon the environment you're in. The cause of this thread seems to be a very gnarly passage which wouldn't be pleasant even for dry caving. This is not a place for most people.

 

[ginti]

I'm suggesting a progressive approach, not rushing nor pushing. Am saying you can progress your skills, whilst gaining experience. Am definitely not suggesting big jumps beyond your skills; but that's the point of experience, learning where the dragons lurk.

I know. Still, the way you propose is not enough progressive and slow for my taste.

For me, you first get training, either from instructors or from mentors, and then you practice, period

 

[Bobby]

But about responsible instructing, when I was looking for a ccr cave crossover, I contacted an instructor who said that to pass that crossover I had to dive my backmount rebreather in the Truffe cave. I said, I have tried it, but where a twin12 fits, the Inspiration for sure does not fit. He said that I had to take my unit in front of me and then squeeze in and then put the unit back on my back. I haven't done that crossover with this instructor. I have never teached a ccr cave class in this cave, in my eyes this is equipment removal for sure. I am not afraid of diving in caves, but I will never squeeze myself into a restriction when I have to remove my ccr from my back. Then I have sidemount equipment if needed.

If any instructor is requiring CCR removal, passage through a restriction, and put the CCR back on for a CCR Cave Crossover class then do not use that instructor. Before SM CCR was a thing I modified a BM CCR to be removed, floated in front of me while on the loop, and put back on to pass SM restrictions. There is no "standard" BM CCR configuration that is setup to do that. It took years of configuration refinement and an immense amount of practice to be able to do it competently. While doing that refinement and practice there were some very harsh learning curves and a few times I came close to not surviving. Removing and replacing a CCR under water is very difficult and adding in a restriction is exponentially more risk.

There have been a number of divers, many of them highly experienced, that have attempted to remove their BM CCR and paid with their lives. I have not taught for over 15 years, so I have not kept up with standards, however I don't believe there is any agency that removing a BM CCR under water, passing a restriction, and putting it back on would be within standards.

 

[PEDiver]

So in my eyes, it is still quite hard to tell exactly what zero to hero is. Or what too fast is. From a computer it is easy to write down. But in reality, it is quite hard to give a definition that fits for everybody. I see that some divers really can go faster than others. I also agree that most standards are too minimum for the average diver. But then it is the discretion or opinion of the instructor.
You cannot stop everybody, you only can advice.

I would agree that we as divers progress differently, mostly related to a few attributes like natural skill, comfortability in the water, and dedication to learning/improving. Some people are able to successfully go zero-to-hero in a week while others may need to space out the courses to work on skills and build experience. Not to complicate things further, but I also believe best practice would be to dive with a mentor doing the type of diving you want to do. This seems to have been more common in the past, but with the number of new cave divers and a community that seems to be growing every year, that doesn't seem to be as applicable anymore.

I think it comes down to being realistic with students and their abilities (as an instructor) and not just progressing a student because they have the time or money. I feel like this is all too common (and not just in cave diving). I also think this is one reason why it is important to learn from multiple instructors, because not only will you learn different ways to tackle a dive/problem, they can also serve as a check on your progression.

 

[L13]

It simple won't work in a cave, at least most of the time it won't.
There's usually not enough room to swim side by side, buddy breathing is also completely incompatible with scootering.
And generally when you're low on gas, you'll want to take a sharp exit, not waste time playing ping pong with a regulator.

If you or your buddy have back gas you can take longer turns on the stage during restrictions. By the time you hit the second stage, your can each have one for yourself, swapping less often than every other breath.

In an emergency, dropping a stage that has 1/3 left when you get to the next stage that has 2/3 in it with the option to keep it, seems like more conservative than dropping an empty stage when you get to the next stage that has 1/2 left.

Also, shouldn't each buddy be dropping and picking up their own stages along the way? So there should be 2 bottles at each stop, not just one?

Not saying it is ideal, or what anyone should plan on. I don't have the experience or training to say what the right way is. I'm listening and asking questions to understand, so that I can be better prepared when I take the training. I much prefer to follow rules that I understand and internalize, rather than just following because I was told to.

Mostly, just saying that the gas is still usable on thirds, not that it is the right choice.

 

[ginti]

If you or your buddy have back gas you can take longer turns on the stage during restrictions. By the time you hit the second stage, your can each have one for yourself, swapping less often than every other breath.

In an emergency, dropping a stage that has 1/3 left when you get to the next stage that has 2/3 in it with the option to keep it, seems like more conservative than dropping an empty stage when you get to the next stage that has 1/2 left.

Also, shouldn't each buddy be dropping and picking up their own stages along the way? So there should be 2 bottles at each stop, not just one?

Not saying it is ideal, or what anyone should plan on. I don't have the experience or training to say what the right way is. I'm listening and asking questions to understand, so that I can be better prepared when I take the training. I much prefer to follow rules that I understand and internalize, rather than just following because I was told to.

Mostly, just saying that the gas is still usable on thirds, not that it is the right choice.

Let's assume that this did not have the problems mentioned by @nakatomi before. Still, having the reserve in your back-mounted cylinders is more optimal. So why bother?

Anyway, step by step:
- even if there is enough space to stay side by side, buddy breathing while swimming long distances in a potentially low visibility environment is very far from the classical exercise
- the idea of taking a big breath and freediving into restrictions is "a bit" crazy. The last thing that you want is to get stuck, even for a few minutes, when you cannot have access to gas
- yes, in theory, you should find two stages (or three) at a time; it does not change anything, though
- if you want to have a bit more gas than you needed to enter, just breath less than half the tank. Still, this excess gas should be there for your comfort - the emergency reserve should be in the BM cylinders to make sharing with a long hose possible.

The situation might be relatively different in side mount configuration, and I won't discuss it since I don't dive it.

 

[L13]

Let's assume that this did not have the problems mentioned by @nakatomi before. Still, having the reserve in your back-mounted cylinders is more optimal. So why bother?

Anyway, step by step:
- even if there is enough space to stay side by side, buddy breathing while swimming long distances in a potentially low visibility environment is very far from the classical exercise
- the idea of taking a big breath and freediving into restrictions is "a bit" crazy. The last thing that you want is to get stuck, even for a few minutes, when you cannot have access to gas
- yes, in theory, you should find two stages (or three) at a time; it does not change anything, though
- if you want to have a bit more gas than you needed to enter, just breath less than half the tank. Still, this excess gas should be there for your comfort - the emergency reserve should be in the BM cylinders to make sharing with a long hose possible.

The situation might be relatively different in side mount configuration, and I won't discuss it since I don't dive it.

Thanks for taking the time to explain! I am learning a lot.

- the idea of taking a big breath and freediving into restrictions is "a bit" crazy. The last thing that you want is to get stuck, even for a few minutes, when you cannot have access to gas

That sounds like more than a "bit" crazy! I was thinking back gas for things like that.

- yes, in theory, you should find two stages (or three) at a time; it does not change anything, though

If there are less stages than divers, wouldn't 2/3 be better than 1/2 in the ones that were there?

 

[ginti]

Thanks for taking the time to explain! I am learning a lot.

No worries

That sounds like more than a "bit" crazy! I was thinking back gas for things like that.

If you have the reserve in the back gas, why have more in the stage?

If there are less stages than divers, wouldn't 2/3 be better than 1/2 in the ones that were there?

There must NOT be fewer stages than divers. If it happens, it's because some other divers stole your stages... And, think about it: in such a case, it is better to have your reserve on your back, where nobody can take it!

Anyway, it's the usual problem. You cannot share that gas, so if you want more gas, keep it in your back-mounted cylinders