Disappointed with Florida Key Dive Operations

[danvolker]

Well I guess my first question here is your definition of good and bad divers. That's very subjective depending on the divers at the time. And secondly I'm certainly not going to create a public list. My belief is there is a dive shop for everyone and who am I to say you should dive here and not there, so I'm won't be able to provide a list. On the other hand I'm sure if you look around at customer comments here on SB and other sources you'll see one person will recommend a dive shop for the reason that is most important to them, it's all over the map. Also your scenario is limiting when it comes to customer service. Picking the right dive site based on a persons skill level is basic common sense, but doesn't say anything about the level of service, safety, or value a customer should get when spending money at that operation. Good customer service starts the minute a potential or existing customer first contacts you and doesn't end till they leave your dive shop. Sure no one gets it right 100% of the time, but it's that level of effort in trying that helps a dive shop shine.

Hi Gary,
From an advertising perspective, my scenario would be troubling to the Co-op of the Keys.
From a "diver perspective", I still think it is what is needed. Yes you can search around for days or weeks on SB and try to read what many are saying about individual operators..but then you have to read alot of posts by each of these posters, to get a feel for what it means when they say something.
In my case, most who read SB frequently will have read enough of my posts to know where I am coming from....it should be clear I am an advocate for the dive experience any person wants to get, and that I believe each of us needs to train for this, and to be good in the water.
Who is a "Bad Diver"....

• When we see someone that does not have a clue how much weight they need, and is willing to attempt a dive being 20 pounds over or underweighted, this is a bad diver. They need to dial in their weighting exactly, prior to the dive, even if it means wasting the first 10 minutes of the first dive just off the ladder, while they perfect the weighting...then they and their buddy can join the fun with everyone else. Ideally, this is done long before the first dive.
• When we see a diver dragging a console on the floor of the boat ( way too long a hose), with the tank down below their butt, and a configuration which can only be seen as retarded, this is a BAD Diver.
• When we see a diver that is constantly vertical in the water, is contantly up and down and bouncing on the bottom often, and silting when over sand, this is a BAD DIVER.
• When we see a diver that swims head up, and feet down, so much so that they can barely move forward, typically tiring themselves out in no time, and making them unable to keep up with a group, this is a BAD DIVER.
• When we see a diver that has no awareness whatsoever, of how much air they are breathing, and who is always at risk for running out of air due to breathing rate and constant failure to check their gauge--this is a BAD DIVER.
• When we see a diver that is buddied to someone else, has agreed to be a buddy, and who then immediately loses focus on the buddy location and is quickly off on their own, and no where to be seen, this is a BAD DIVER..If this person wants to dive SOLO, this is a different issue.
• These are just a few.. I could go on ad nauseum

I know a few dive shops up your way and would certainly recommend them to my customers and I'm certain they would do the same for me. But sorry trying to create a public list is not the right approach. Let's all work together to promote diving in Florida. Whether that's in the Panhandle, Cave Country, Treasure Coast, Space Coast, Gold Coast, West Coast or the Keys. There are highlights at each of these locations and customers usually find out the good and bad soon enough without our opinions.

Bottom line....Let's Work Together.

Good Diving,

Gary, I would work together, but I DO want to tell divers about what I see as the BEST in each of the dive areas of the Keys. This would be "Best" with the disclaimers of exactly what I think is BEST.
In a nutshell, BEST would be best for advanced/constantly diving Palm Beach Divers, if they were to visit the Keys. Divers from around the US can interpret this, and it should have value to them. I would NOT get involved in promoting any other form of dive business in the keys, such as the models where "cruise ship divers" are embraced, or combinations of bad and good divers are the norm.

 

[danvolker]

Actually Key Largo does have big marine life. There are Goliath Groupers on the Grove, Eagle, Duane, and Molasses, abundant nurse sharks, sting rays. Last year I saw an Atlantic Manta on the deep reef called Conch Wall and was surprised by a Tiger Shark at my safety stop. So you are wrong and like I said, West Palm and surrounding areas aren't bad diving, I would certainly go there and do enjoy it, but the Upper Keys are better to me, especially due to the Duane, Eagle, Spiegel, & Bibb. The deep reef and shallow reef is great too.
Its all good.
[video=youtube_share;ZTdpxYSiv5M]http://youtu.be/ZTdpxYSiv5M?hd=1[/video]

Look, I will stipulate that there is some good diving in the Keys...even some spectacular dives. But you can't say Key largo has big marine life in the way Palm Beach has big marine life. We have had divers playing with whalesharks almost every year, some diving next to humpback whales, some diving with sailfish, and many other monster sized fish. I am not talking now about what you might see if you dive 100 times in a year. I am talking about what you should expect on any given dive day.

We have so many nurse sharks in Palm Beach, many consider them insignificant like Grunts.

In the Fall it is easy to get on one of our spectacular wrecks like the Castor, the Mispah, the Zion or the Bonaire, and to see 40 to 100 monster sized Goliath Groupers. Even this time of the year or in summer, it is easy to see 6 to a dozen on these wrecks outside of the fall Aggregations.

We have so many sea turtles that it is not uncommon to do a dive and see 20 to 40 turtles on a single dive.
We have "real sharks". Bullsharks, Hammerheads, even tigers, though the tigers are less likely to be seen. The bullsharks can be seen almost anytime you want by just going on a boat that caters to spearfisherman, and you doing a drop with them. Hammers are less frequent, but common for locals to see. This is a big eco-system, and it still has alot of the Apex predators, along with the food they need.

 

[Capt Gary]

Hi Gary,
From and advertising perspective, my scenario would be troubling to the Co-op of the Keys.
From a "diver perspective", I still think it is what is needed. Yes you can search around for days or weeks on SB and try to read what many are saying about individual operators..but then you have to read alot of posts by each of these posters, to get a feel for what it means when they say something.
In my case, most who read SB frequently will have read enough of my posts to know where I am coming from....it should be clear I am an advocate for the dive experience any person wants to get, and that I believe each of us needs to train for this, and to be good in the water.
Who is a "Bad Diver"....

• When we see someone that does not have a clue how much weight they need, and is willing to attempt a dive being 20 pounds over or underweighted, this is a bad diver. They need to dial in their weighting exactly, prior to the dive, even if it means wasting the first 10 minutes of the first dive just off the ladder, while they perfect the weighting...then they and their buddy can join the fun with everyone else. Ideally, this is done long before the first dive.
• When we see a diver dragging a console on the floor of the boat ( way too long a hose), with the tank down below their butt, and a configuration which can only be seen as retarded, this is a BAD Diver.
• When we see a diver that is constantly vertical in the water, is contantly up and down and bouncing on the bottom often, and silting when over sand, this is a BAD DIVER.
• When we see a diver that swims head up, and feet down, so much so that they can barely move forward, typically tiring themselves out in no time, and making them unable to keep up with a group, this is a BAD DIVER.
• When we see a diver that has no awareness whatsoever, of how much air they are breathing, and who is always at risk for running out of air due to breathing rate and constant failure to check their gauge--this is a BAD DIVER.
• When we see a diver that is buddied to someone else, has agreed to be a buddy, and who then immediately loses focus on the buddy location and is quickly off on their own, and no where to be seen, this is a BAD DIVER..If this person wants to dive SOLO, this is a different issue.
• These are just a few.. I could go on ad nauseum

Gary, I would work together, but I DO want to tell divers about what I see as the BEST in each of the dive areas of the Keys. This would be "Best" with the disclaimers of exactly what I think is BEST.
In a nutshell, BEST would be best for advanced/constantly diving Palm Beach Divers, if they were to visit the Keys. Divers from around the US can interpret this, and it should have value to them. I would NOT get involved in promoting any other form of dive business in the keys, such as the models where "cruise ship divers" are embraced, or combinations of bad and good divers are the norm.

Dan...I'm sorry but I think your scenario would be troubling to a lot of dive shops, not just the ones in the Keys.
What you're suggesting is to identify dive shops who allow, what you refer to as a BAD DIVER on their boat, and then steer divers away from those shops. How does a diver learn if not by making mistakes and we, the dive professionals, then should step in to correct them? But to come up with a list is, in my opinion, is not the right marketing approach.

I guess this is working for you and the dive shops who advertise in your magazine, but to be honest this would scare me off. And yes I've had some of those BAD DIVERS on my boats at one time or the other, but we try to educate them to be better divers. I've also had very experienced divers on my boats too. When looking at my calendar you can get a good idea of what level of experience will be on my boat. If you see wreck or deep reef you can be assured the divers on the boat have at the very least an advanced certification. But those certifications doesn't make them a good diver. I can't count the number of Dive-masters and Instructors we've had to rescue over the past 9 years.

So I apologize but I'm afraid your marketing strategy is beyond my comprehension. I wish you well and if ever in the Keys, please stop by to say hi.

Good Diving,

 

[Rescue Diver68]

Look, I will stipulate that there is some good diving in the Keys...even some spectacular dives. But you can't say Key largo has big marine life in the way Palm Beach has big marine life. We have had divers playing with whalesharks almost every year, some diving next to humpback whales, some diving with sailfish, and many other monster sized fish. I am not talking now about what you might see if you dive 100 times in a year. I am talking about what you should expect on any given dive day.

We have so many nurse sharks in Palm Beach, many consider them insignificant like Grunts.

In the Fall it is easy to get on one of our spectacular wrecks like the Castor, the Mispah, the Zion or the Bonaire, and to see 40 to 100 monster sized Goliath Groupers. Even this time of the year or in summer, it is easy to see 6 to a dozen on these wrecks outside of the fall Aggregations.

We have so many sea turtles that it is not uncommon to do a dive and see 20 to 40 turtles on a single dive.
We have "real sharks". Bullsharks, Hammerheads, even tigers, though the tigers are less likely to be seen. The bullsharks can be seen almost anytime you want by just going on a boat that caters to spearfisherman, and you doing a drop with them. Hammers are less frequent, but common for locals to see. This is a big eco-system, and it still has alot of the Apex predators, along with the food they need.

"Look" That's kind of rude and testy don't you think? You said there is no big marine life in Key Largo and I said you are wrong. You are. I have been diving in both places and unless it is Goliath congregation season, there is not the plethora of huge creature's on every dive like you are trying to sell. My opinion is that the diving is better in the Upper Keys than WPB, Jupiter and Pompano. That's my opinion and you are entitled to yours for sure.

 

[danvolker]

Dan...I'm sorry but I think your scenario would be troubling to a lot of dive shops, not just the ones in the Keys.
What you're suggesting is to identify dive shops who allow, what you refer to as a BAD DIVER on their boat, and then steer divers away from those shops. How does a diver learn if not by making mistakes and we, the dive professionals, then should step in to correct them? But to come up with a list is, in my opinion, is not the right marketing approach.

I am not really making a distinction regarding shops.....In my way of discussing a dive experience, it is boat based in this regard. If i put myself in the place of an advanced diver from California, or Denver, or North Carolina, I think about how extremely hard it is to avoid getting stuck on boats full of BAD DIVERS.

Each boat tends to have it's own typical market or client base. Some tend toward more advanced, some tend more toward students, some mix good and bad horribly. The bad mix needs to be avoided.

I guess this is working for you and the dive shops who advertise in your magazine, but to be honest this would scare me off. And yes I've had some of those BAD DIVERS on my boats at one time or the other, but we try to educate them to be better divers. I've also had very experienced divers on my boats too. When looking at my calendar you can get a good idea of what level of experience will be on my boat. If you see wreck or deep reef you can be assured the divers on the boat have at the very least an advanced certification. But those certifications doesn't make them a good diver. I can can't count the number of Dive-masters and Instructors we've had to rescue over the past 9 years.

I think it is easy for bad divers to find a boat they will like. They don't know what they don't know, and typically rely on the boat to prevent their having an accident.
It is hard for good divers to find a boat that really caters to them. This is an area where Palm Beach boats excell...if you or your group are good divers, it is very easy to be catered to exactly in Palm Beach. If you are bringing students here, with specific needs like a checkout dive, we have excellent ways of stratifying the boats so that no one will be on the "wrong boat".

If someone is a BAD DIVER, it can't be the boat's responsibility to fix this....the boat should tell them they need a lot more quality training before coming back. A dive shop or instructor somewhere, then needs t to get involved to fix this. Just letting a really bad diver keep diving badly, is not something we endorse in Palm Beach. This is a different mindset.
We like instructors to take divers where they need to be in skills, and in gear configuration.
Personally, I think this should be mandatory. For those caught between their last class, and the dives it takes to move to the next level of instruction--and no longer being a BAD DIVER, for some this may mean finding a mentor/buddy, for some it may mean diving with the instructor for several development dives.
There is really no excuse whatsoever, for the horrible weighting mistakes and hoses and tanks dragging as the diver stumbles their way toward the dive platform. The instructor should never have turned this person loose, if they had not grasped issues such as how bad this is.

 

[Rich Keller]

This is something I would actually think about. As I said, my pet peeve comes from the times I went out on boats and found the boat catering to the worst divers, in the worst way they could....very much the opposite of how Palm Beach boats operate. In Palm Beach, the boat "wants" to cater to advanced divers, and will be "willing" to run a student trip where the sites are shallow, etc....but the boats still expect the students and instructors to know how to dive. Divers that are hopelessly incompetent, are often asked never to come back. They are bad for all the other good divers, they are bad for liability issues, and if these people really want to dive, then they need more quality instruction first.

This all depends on your opinion of the "worst diver". My opinion of the "worst diver" is a diver with a fist full of advanced certification cards, few hours in the water and they are positive that they know it all. These are the most dangerous divers I have ever seen. I usually avoid charter boats not because of the shop, captain, instructor or DM, I avoid them because they have people like this on board as customers. On those rare occasions when I am on vacation and there is no other option but a charter I am looking for the OW group because they are diving shallow and long. I dive in water where you get 5' visibility on a good day so when I get to the Keys with 10 to 20 times better visibility I am not looking to make 100' dives, I want to be in the 30' range with the more cautious people who do not think they know it all yet.

 

[Reck Diver]

This all depends on your opinion of the "worst diver". My opinion of the "worst diver" is a diver with a fist full of advanced certification cards, few hours in the water and they are positive that they know it all. These are the most dangerous divers I have ever seen. I usually avoid charter boats not because of the shop, captain, instructor or DM, I avoid them because they have people like this on board as customers. On those rare occasions when I am on vacation and there is no other option but a charter I am looking for the OW group because they are diving shallow and long. I dive in water where you get 5' visibility on a good day so when I get to the Keys with 10 to 20 times better visibility I am not looking to make 100' dives, I want to be in the 30' range with the more cautious people who do not think they know it all yet.

Amen brother! now please excuse me, I'm loading my boat for 4 days of fishing and diving, with a bunch of semi-average divers and loving it

 

[sportxlh]

Wow everyone, all Florida diving is pretty cool. I live near Jupiter, so most of my diving is in Jupiter because it is convenient and the diving never disappoints with all the big marine life one can see but also nudibranches, flamingo tongues, purple mouth and goldentail morays, cleaner shrimp, banded shrimp, arrow crabs etc. etc. Its nice to roll out of bed Saturday morning and be at the dive boat in 12-15 minutes. But I get to the Keys as often as possible too (last time was with ConchRepublic in Sept for 10 dives). Aside from the fantastic diving, the Keys are simply a fun place to visit, feels like you enter another country or depending on exactly how close you get to MM 1 and what time of the year, another planet!! I also get down to Boynton, WPB and Pompano/Lauderdale/Dania as often as I can and have done a dive trip to the Dry Tortugas as well (I am signed up for another trip to the Dry Tortugas on the Spree in May via Dayo scuba shop). I realize I have not exactly put forward a coherent argument, but I do feel that, while all these locales are different and unique, they are all equally enjoyable to dive! One is simply not better than the other to me.