Disappointed with Florida Key Dive Operations

[Thalassamania]

Dan has a point.

 

[fjpatrum]

As Dan indicated, its not an either/or situation. Plan on visiting both areas in the same visit if you have more than 4 days available...

That's what we're doing... 3 days in the Keys and 3 days in West Palm... best of both worlds, right?

 

[Capt Gary]

Hey guys, I am not knocking the Keys. I said that. I love Molasses. But if I recall it is a bit of a ride. I love Palm Beach and Jupiter in particular because of the large animals....turtles, Jewfish, rays,etc. I also think the Boynton reefs (South of the Palm Beach inlet) are pretty healthy.

We don't have the Grove or the Vandenberg, but we have the Governors Riverwalk, the barge, the Castor, Capt Tony, Zion Train, Mizpah, Miss Budweiser, etc. They'll all be looking like the Mizpah in a number of years.

Like Dan said, 20 minutes to prime sites. Unless you head to Juno ledge. (my all time most awesome dive anywhere). It's straight off my house. So like exactly halfway between the Jupiter and Palm Beach inlets. Maybe 45 minutes from either. But there is color, sharks, Jewfish, bait balls, bottom fish, paleagics, gin clear water (warmer than the Keys in the Winter...remember "tea and toast from HS chem).

Spillip, I don't think you are knocking the Keys and I'm sure you love the area you live in as much as i love the area I live it. Heck it's be a bit of a ride for me to come dive your location. I think the area of contention here is danvolker stating that Palm Beach area is better than the Keys. The quote under the 6 min video he posted states, "When you dive Palm Beach, the Keys and Cayman begin to become "irrelevant" ". It's this kind of bash marketing that never works.

You are misinterpreting.
In the last 20 years I have been diving all over South Florida and the Keys. One thing that really struck me about the Keys is the large number of boats a vacationing diver could accidentally get on, and end up being forced to dive with babysitters that know little about diving themselves, and who cater almost exclusively to the worst students and worst divers. This is certainly not all Keys boats..some are quite awesome. But there are so many bad ones.....Add to this, the fact that Monroe county spends about 9 million per year advertising the Keys ( last I heard) and the potential for Dive tourists from all over the US to get suckered into a sh*t boat, that operates for the worst divers...exactly what the OP was talking about. This pisses me off. It is blatantly unfair to all the divers that get sucked in by the bad boats...It is also a shame that so many mistakenly believe that the Keys ARE Florida diving. They do get 90% of the dive tourists that go to Florida, and if you ask me, they are being lied to.
I post the way I do because another voice needs to be heard, against the back-drop of millions of dollars of advertising that creates an untrue picture of where these divers SHOULD go in Florida, to get the dive they would enjoy the most.

So Danvolker I have a suggestion. Why not reach out to a few good/safe dive shops here in the Keys to help send divers your way? I think that would be a much more productive marketing campaign where Florida works together to satisfy the diving needs of the public. You could actually benefit from some of those marketing dollars.

Also there's not that many bad shops down here in the Keys as you suggest. The bad ones don't last long and not every dive shop, even in your area, are going to please 100% of the customers all the time. Bottom like.....Let's all work together and not against each other to give guest a great diving vacation.

Good Diving,

 

[Capt Scotty]

I lived in Palm Beach county for three years before moving to the Keys. I had never heard about the Palm Beach diving before I moved to Florida. There is great diving at both places, its not really comparing apples to apples.....As Dan said Monroe county spent 9m in advertising....sounds to me like Palm Beach county needs to step up to the plate and put the money on the table.

 

[danvolker]

Spillip, I don't think you are knocking the Keys and I'm sure you love the area you live in as much as i love the area I live it. Heck it's be a bit of a ride for me to come dive your location. I think the area of contention here is danvolker stating that Palm Beach area is better than the Keys. The quote under the 6 min video he posted states, "When you dive Palm Beach, the Keys and Cayman begin to become "irrelevant" ". It's this kind of bash marketing that never works.



So Danvolker I have a suggestion. Why not reach out to a few good/safe dive shops here in the Keys to help send divers your way? I think that would be a much more productive marketing campaign where Florida works together to satisfy the diving needs of the public. You could actually benefit from some of those marketing dollars.

Also there's not that many bad shops down here in the Keys as you suggest. The bad ones don't last long and not every dive shop, even in your area, are going to please 100% of the customers all the time. Bottom like.....Let's all work together and not against each other to give guest a great diving vacation.

Good Diving,

Gary,
This is something I would actually think about. As I said, my pet peeve comes from the times I went out on boats and found the boat catering to the worst divers, in the worst way they could....very much the opposite of how Palm Beach boats operate. In Palm Beach, the boat "wants" to cater to advanced divers, and will be "willing" to run a student trip where the sites are shallow, etc....but the boats still expect the students and instructors to know how to dive. Divers that are hopelessly incompetent, are often asked never to come back. They are bad for all the other good divers, they are bad for liability issues, and if these people really want to dive, then they need more quality instruction first.

So to your idea, I would have to know which Keys Operators are catering to good divers, and who effectively shun the dangerously bad divers ( not talking students here). With this group of boats, I would want to know their policy if they have 10 good divers booked on the boat, expecting a nice 100 foot deep wreck or reef, and 6 students with an instructor that are desiring some OW checkout dives. If the boat operator sees these two groups as incompatible, and finds an acceptable replacement operator for one of these 2 groups, then this is being handled properly, and I would recommend their operation. If they have some sites that are on a shallow area adjacent to a wall and deep reef, so that both groups can enjoy themselves, then fine, provided they explain to the advanced group that this will be the plan, and ask if it will be acceptable for them. In my experience, I found several Keys boats that did not care to engage in discussion of where they would be going, and they really just catered to the bad divers, or student groups.
I hate this, and will always attempt to identify and warn divers of operators such as this.

If you have a short list of dive operators in the Keys that you think I would like--that most other advanced divers would like..that most advanced Palm Beach divers would like...please put this in a reply post. I may just visit some of these and do a story on them.
Like you are indicating, we don't operate in a Vacuum. I know some people will want to take advantage of the good diving to be had in the Keys. From my perspective, this is a Florida dive, and I would like to see them having an expectation of getting a good trip if they are doing this.

 

[Rescue Diver68]

Well guess you can called yourself shocked Dan.

I'll be happy to do your challenge.

Personally I think we both have some nice dive sites, but for you to say diving is better where you are, I think is fairly presumptuous of you?

And here's a video of one of our reefs down here for you to look at.

[video=youtube;BuHaht-lRgE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuHaht-lRgE&hd=1[/video]

Good Diving,

The upper keys totally trump WPB, Jupiter, and Pompano in my opinion. Not saying I didn't enjoy those locations but the Keys are waaaaay better to me. Add a great dive shop like Conch Republic to that and you have the makings of a great trip. I have been addicted to the Upper Keys and Cozumel for 10 yrs now.

 

[Capt Gary]

Gary,
This is something I would actually think about. As I said, my pet peeve comes from the times I went out on boats and found the boat catering to the worst divers, in the worst way they could....very much the opposite of how Palm Beach boats operate. In Palm Beach, the boat "wants" to cater to advanced divers, and will be "willing" to run a student trip where the sites are shallow, etc....but the boats still expect the students and instructors to know how to dive. Divers that are hopelessly incompetent, are often asked never to come back. They are bad for all the other good divers, they are bad for liability issues, and if these people really want to dive, then they need more quality instruction first.

So to your idea, I would have to know which Keys Operators are catering to good divers, and who effectively shun the dangerously bad divers ( not talking students here). With this group of boats, I would want to know their policy if they have 10 good divers booked on the boat, expecting a nice 100 foot deep wreck or reef, and 6 students with an instructor that are desiring some OW checkout dives. If the boat operator sees these two groups as incompatible, and finds an acceptable replacement operator for one of these 2 groups, then this is being handled properly, and I would recommend their operation. If they have some sites that are on a shallow area adjacent to a wall and deep reef, so that both groups can enjoy themselves, then fine, provided they explain to the advanced group that this will be the plan, and ask if it will be acceptable for them. In my experience, I found several Keys boats that did not care to engage in discussion of where they would be going, and they really just catered to the bad divers, or student groups.
I hate this, and will always attempt to identify and warn divers of operators such as this.

If you have a short list of dive operators in the Keys that you think I would like--that most other advanced divers would like..that most advanced Palm Beach divers would like...please put this in a reply post. I may just visit some of these and do a story on them.
Like you are indicating, we don't operate in a Vacuum. I know some people will want to take advantage of the good diving to be had in the Keys. From my perspective, this is a Florida dive, and I would like to see them having an expectation of getting a good trip if they are doing this.

Well I guess my first question here is your definition of good and bad divers. That's very subjective depending on the divers at the time. And secondly I'm certainly not going to create a public list. My belief is there is a dive shop for everyone and who am I to say you should dive here and not there, so I'm won't be able to provide a list. On the other hand I'm sure if you look around at customer comments here on SB and other sources you'll see one person will recommend a dive shop for the reason that is most important to them, it's all over the map. Also your scenario is limiting when it comes to customer service. Picking the right dive site based on a persons skill level is basic common sense, but doesn't say anything about the level of service, safety, or value a customer should get when spending money at that operation. Good customer service starts the minute a potential or existing customer first contacts you and doesn't end till they leave your dive shop. Sure no one gets it right 100% of the time, but it's that level of effort in trying that helps a dive shop shine.

I know a few dive shops up your way and would certainly recommend them to my customers and I'm certain they would do the same for me. But sorry trying to create a public list is not the right approach. Let's all work together to promote diving in Florida. Whether that's in the Panhandle, Cave Country, Treasure Coast, Space Coast, Gold Coast, West Coast or the Keys. There are highlights at each of these locations and customers usually find out the good and bad soon enough without our opinions.

Bottom line....Let's Work Together.

Good Diving,

 

[danvolker]

The upper keys totally trump WPB, Jupiter, and Pompano in my opinion. Not saying I didn't enjoy those locations but the Keys are waaaaay better to me. Add a great dive shop like Conch Republic to that and you have the makings of a great trip. I have been addicted to the Upper Keys and Cozumel for 10 yrs now.

Clearly there is a subjective assessment going on here, for each of us. I watched this video of the Keys you and others have highlighted....it is pretty...It is shallow. It DOES have life in it, though not BIG marine life. It is a calm and good Zen kind of place. And of course, there are some Keys experiences all divers should have....No question!

Palm Beach does not have equivalent 20 foot deep dives. If we could work a transportation concept out, to allow divers to enjoy both the shallow of the keys, with the deeper and larger life of Palm Beach, that would be a huge benefit for all divers.

Not quite sure of how you can compare the enormity of the swimming bio mass between the two areas though....did you even watch the youtube video of Palm Beach I linked before? It is this ADVENTURE and enormous volume of swimming marine life I am caught up with.....please watch the Palm Beach video and then tell me how the small schools of grunts, however pretty, compare to the much larger life I am showcasing.....I am NOT disagreeing with you about the nice Zen and great 20 foot deep dive of the Keys though... * note footage of Baitball switches to 50 foot deep Coral reef off of Island of Palm Beach/Lake Worth at about two minutes and ten seconds in.... , then switches to huge Goliaths on wreck of Zion at 3:26 in....at around 5:48 it switches to our Blue Heron Bridge Marine Park, which has about 4 hours of good beach based and free diving per day....this 4 hours being the window provided by the tides for optimal underwater photography.

[video=youtube_share;ZTdpxYSiv5M]http://youtu.be/ZTdpxYSiv5M?hd=1[/video]

 

[deeper thoughts]

Having dove both I will take the Keys hands down. 20 minutes away on my boat and I am on a world class reef, Can live anywhere in Florida and picked the Keys

 

[Rescue Diver68]

Clearly there is a subjective assessment going on here, for each of us. I watched this video of the Keys you and others have highlighted....it is pretty...It is shallow. It DOES have life in it, though not BIG marine life. It is a calm and good Zen kind of place. And of course, there are some Keys experiences all divers should have....No question!

Palm Beach does not have equivalent 20 foot deep dives. If we could work a transportation concept out, to allow divers to enjoy both the shallow of the keys, with the deeper and larger life of Palm Beach, that would be a huge benefit for all divers.

Not quite sure of how you can compare the enormity of the swimming bio mass between the two areas though....did you even watch the youtube video of Palm Beach I linked before? It is this ADVENTURE and enormous volume of swimming marine life I am caught up with.....please watch the Palm Beach video and then tell me how the small schools of grunts, however pretty, compare to the much larger life I am showcasing.....I am NOT disagreeing with you about the nice Zen and great 20 foot deep dive of the Keys though...

[video=youtube_share;ZTdpxYSiv5M]http://youtu.be/ZTdpxYSiv5M?hd=1[/video]

Actually Key Largo does have big marine life. There are Goliath Groupers on the Grove, Eagle, Duane, and Molasses, abundant nurse sharks, sting rays. Last year I saw an Atlantic Manta on the deep reef called Conch Wall and was surprised by a Tiger Shark at my safety stop. So you are wrong and like I said, West Palm and surrounding areas aren't bad diving, I would certainly go there and do enjoy it, but the Upper Keys are better to me, especially due to the Duane, Eagle, Spiegel, & Bibb. The deep reef and shallow reef is great too.
Its all good.