DIR wars...Is it the name?

[dweeb]

There is a win-win method to most things. In conversational debate, which I consider different from academic or legal debate, we are attempting to win the "opponent" over to our way of thinking. Proving a person wrong, especially with an offensive demeanor, meaning, among other things, that you don't attempt to demean those whom you are trying to win over to your way of thinking, will not win you any friends or converts no matter how great you think your position.

The flipside to that (and this is very relevant to the DIR issue) is that people are far too often swayed to idiotic points of view by a gentle, ego stroking presentation. Ultimately, you're talking about salesmanship, and how many people are bamboozled by a slick sales pitch every day in this world? How many people are lousy divers because they gravitated to the most slickly marketed training? (mandatory on-topic connection) How many of times have I listened to some woman bemoaning all the times a guy with sweet overture had kicked her to the curb before the final curtain fell?

When someone soft peddles a point of view, I'm automatically suspicious.
A truly great idea should sell itself, even if the messenger is a little rough around the edges.

In spite of your assertions about the US public School system (and I agree with those) we can regulate our discussions in a manner that allows people to accept our understandings, beliefs, (knowledge); even, perhaps with enough years and introspection, wisdom. This impartation of knowledge isn't successfully done through punishment and petulance. Just because we don't abuse each other doesn't mean that we're wimps.

No one is advocating abuse. The problem is, the definition of abuse keeps getting over-extended.

Aside to the education systems problems, which I believe are many; many school districts have no forms of discipline (and I'm sure the folks at the top want those few that still have some discipline to remove those vestiges)

Because they define discipline as abuse.

and I too believe that the most of this lack of discipline and order (order does not mean goose-stepping squads of children) stems from inneffectual parenting.

Which stems from the same philosophies as the bad schooling.

 

[dweeb]

Nonsense.
This isn't a matter of "power" ... it's a matter of respect and discretion.

Hardly. He made an accusation of repression against those in authority.
There is no respect or discretion that requires it be looked into secretly, unless you're working in the Nixon White House.

I'd do the same for you ... even if the respect wasn't (and isn't being) reciprocated.

There is plenty of respect. Sugar coated niceties are the height of disrespect - a form of talking down to people. I would not want you to do the same for me. I doubt he has anything to hide, so the only party with an interest in "discretion" is you.

I am personally very interested in what Novadiver is basing his accusations upon. That's why I asked him to explain them further. I would think others are also interested.

 

[dweeb]

Don't make me get personal. I've managed to avoid it so far, but I can count to ten very fast, sometimes I need to count to one thousand.
This sounds like a lawyer without a case bearbating to fluster his opponent.

Relax, I'm not even disagreeing with you per se.
I'm simply saying that we SHOULD be able to respond maturely, despite the fact that you are correct, people often don't.

See your post about censorship. We should be able to handle being told we're wrong without a candy coating.

 

[dweeb]

Here I agree with you 100%.
I whined back a few pages when I discovered about one-third the way through this thread that we were being censored.
Even with the "Ad Hominem" and other logical fallacies in this thread, I saw no call for censorship.
I FEEL SO VIOLATED!!

What, you didn't know?
Where do you think most of the fallacies come from?
Fallacies flourish when ideas are relieved of evolutionary pressure.
There are no consequences to saying something illogical, so illogic runs amuck. Censorship is the attempt to idiotproof conversation, and you know how nature responds to attempts at idiotproofing, don't you?

 

[Nomaster]

LOL. He looks like my dive buddy from two weeks ago before/while I started "working" on him. I met this young diver (25 dives) who was very much interested in going into Tech diving ... So we went to a quarry and did some stuff. I took pics of him. He saw me diving. He saw how my gear was streamlined ...
After dive 1 - note I did not say anything - ... He wanted to make changes on his dive gear. How do you clip this ? How I streamline that ? How I route my hoses ? How can I get rid of my Air2 ? Can I try your fins on the next dive ?

After dive 2, he was saying he wanted a long hose after we did some drills and definetely jet fins ...

We went diving to the 1000 islands, spent the week-end in Rockport, dove some wrecks ... He started pointing out differences with other divers. Hey look how those guys are silting the whole place ! How do you do your frog kick ?
The best was for the safety stop ... He stopped hanging on the line all the time after dive 2 and working on being flat ...
While hovering next to the line I started backward kicking for fun. I got the funniest look :"WOW how on the hell you do that ???".
Last dive, and - there I was really proud - , there were a bunch of divers hanging on a line and doing deco ... He just let the line go, put himself flat and we gently surfaced side by side from 30 feet in 5 min ...

End of the week-end : he now wants a backplate and wings and a drysuit ... and he said, "should I take that extreme (this was a joke between him and me) diver fundamental course you told me about ?"

Bottom line I believe in example and mentoring ... I not even once time criticized him or told him "this is the right way"

Now that's what I'm talkin' about!
Thanks for reminding me I wanted to buy some Jet Fins (they were invented during the time (during my previous life) when I was a ship's diver I believe, still the standard, cool). I forgot to get them, they really help to avoid silting up a wreck when used properly; or so I was told and have observed.

Tom

 

[The Fresh Prince]

I know what you think of me, but IMO this is crazy. dweeb is a great asset to this board, and as far as I can tell, does everything politely and well within the TOS.

I have to concur with Jonnythan. Dweeb has posted cogent, dispassionate arguments without ad hominem attacks or derogatory statements against anyone, despite repeated personal attacks and threat from a moderator. I think many could learn through the civil discourse evidenced in his threads. Oh yeah, never met him nor am I anyones sychophant.

 

[DennisS]

Definition: Inane \In*ane"\, a. [L. inanis.]
Without contents; empty; void of sense or intelligence;
purposeless; pointless; characterless; useless.

 

[Nomaster]

An accusation has been leveled against those in power.
Rather than an open airing of the issue, the authorities
insist on discussing it behind closed doors, in a "star chamber."

Secrecy, one of the leading tools of tyranny.

Or they just don't want to hijack the thread.
Maybe we need an "Issues" thread.

Tom

 

[Nomaster]

You don't need to ... it's obvious.

It's also becoming increasingly obvious that your style of conversation is at odds with what we want this board to represent. Eventually, we'll have to make a business decision.

Consider your choices.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I think he does at times show restraint, perhaps it's merely that he is experimenting with the difference between blunt and abrasive. He claims not to want to be abusive, so perhaps he will soon learn that he can be strident without being wearing or even wearying.
It could happen, I see the potential.

Tom

 

[Keysdrifter454]

Why don't you plant your geriatric butt back on the couch in front of a Matlock marathon and let those of us that are young enough to actually go diving worry about it. Capiche, dude?

That was bitter.