DIR, RDP & computer.. ???'s from a newbie

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This has been some really interesting reading, and I appreciate everybody's input. Just to clarify, I was not looking for some free info over the newsgroup. I can't wait to be able to take DIR-F, but I think I first need to save enough to complete my hogarthian/DIR kit- I'm getting there. I Just started diving in mid July of this year. I remember my wife and I's first dives alone and thinking back to my training. I couldn't see how performing those skills on my knees would save us in a true emergency. I'm a strong believer in the "to fail to prepare is to prepare to fail" attitude. A monkey could be taught to use tables in a square profile dive, but the theory behind it, the "WHY" is apparently not so easy. I think it's pretty obvious that until DIR-F, I should be relying on my suunto for multilevel dives such as the ones I did this weekend. I felt very safe. We took long safety stops and like I said the computer never ran out of deco time. But... after my third dive, I called it quits because I said to myself, "I'm probably full of nitrogen." (The other reason was that I was a popsicle :) ). For our max depth, those dives were much longer than I have dived before. Of course, with my air consumption and the usual steel 80, I'm not sure I'd ever hit the no stop limit.

-hh and departurediver: your comments were just what I was looking for, Thank you both. -hh your explanation was very helpful and you can bet I'll be reading that over to help my understanding.

Enjoy the journey... I already am. My wife told me the other day that I can't say anything that hasn't got something to do with diving or the ocean. I'm obsessed. If only I could have stumbled upon this earlier. I remember this last saturday peering down into the ocean for the first time and the excitement that came over me, like a kid going into FAO Scwartz (or whatever the name of that place is). In only 19 dives, I have so many memories that I can close my eyes and vividly recall. How lucky we are.

Thanks everyone,
Tony
 
Mike, I'm in 100% agreement. My last post was a little simplistic just to make a point, even though it is what we do. While it takes awhile to truly get a very good feel for deco calculations, once a diver does get it, then adjustments can be made underwater if need be ... on the fly if you will. Due to our dives being 400+ feet at altitude, we plan them to be conservative ... just cuz I'm cautious by nature. However, we also know (plan) for the need to get out sooner. We can do many contingencies with only one or two deco schedules since we know in our heads what we need to do to our profile in case a situation occurs underwater (bringing us back to the point of understanding and then using your brain). While we plan it conservatively, we also know how many minutes we can shave off to do either an aggressive ascent (absolute minimum deco) for some sort of emergency or an acceptable ascent or the planned conservative ascent. Also, we know in our heads how to make an adjustment if we lose a deco gas. This was learned by noticing patterns from running many profiles. It can give great peace of mind knowing how to make a mental adjustment should the need arise without the need to be carrying multiple profiles, slates, etc.

When I owned my dive store many years ago, at first we refused to sell dive computers since I was concerned people would rely on them too much. It does a diver no good when they gent bent and then say “but I was within my computer limits.” While the diver has now justified why and how they got bent, the bottom line is they got a hit. We later starting selling computers since the divers were going to buy them anyway from another store, but we took the opportunity to try to educate them on how it is a tool and how it could be used that way with some basic understandings instead of a reliance … even though I never became a pro-computer diver myself.

Again, we are on the same page with divers needing to understand what they are doing and why and with this knowledge, hopefully divers also get a feel for how aggressive or conservative they are diving and take responsibility for their choices/risk management. My personal choice is to be what many consider too conservative … but it gives me peace of mind (and if I get hurt I only have myself to blame instead of trying to pass the buck) … but I also know how to get out much faster if the need arises … and with good education, these are skills all divers can learn.
 
Hi Tony. I actually think I should be thanking you for starting this thread. Like Mike has said, and I agree, this tangent we got on has actually become very productive in not only educating divers, but dispelling some myths also and opening up some dialogue that sometimes is missing in some chats with some cordial debates. I don't know Mike all that well, but if I understand correctly, he is at the very top of GUE and it is a treat to be able to freely exchange information with him. I’ll also add that in my opinion of teaching for over 20 years (non GUE) that the GUE-F class should be considered mandatory. My dive partner, who is also an instructor, has over 6000 dives and when he took it he thought it was the best thing he did for his diving in a long time. I try not to promote any agency over another, but no matter who you go through or have been through, take the GUE-F class. Okay, I’m off my soap box now.

Safe diving
 
tonyc,

Excellent questions! I would not have looked at this thread had you not authored it. Thanks to your good questions and the variety of perspectives that attempted to answer them (and so much more) I have learned a lot about our dive on Saturday!

It is fascinating to learn something new about diving every single day whether we are in the water or at the keyboard. Thanks to everyone here for some great info.

Let us know when you're coming back to CA Tony. I would love to dive with you again soon. We'll do a reunion dive!
 
Guys,

This has been one of the more useful threads that I've been involved in for some time. It's these kind of threads why I continue to participate in scuba forums. Frankly, reading Tony's last post, and his enthusiasim showing through, it reminds me of when I first started diving. One of the common themes that binds us all is that child-like enthusiasim that we all felt, and still fell every time we get into the water..

Tony feel free to keep asking questions, e-mail me at mhk@gue.com if I can be of help. To the rest of you guys, thanks for a great thread..

I'm heading out for the weekend shortly but I'll be available for follow-up's on Monday..

Regards
 
tonyc:
This has been some really interesting reading, and I appreciate everybody's input. Just to clarify, I was not looking for some free info over the newsgroup. I can't wait to be able to take DIR-F, but I think I first need to save enough to complete my hogarthian/DIR kit- I'm getting there. I Just started diving in mid July of this year.

Call me a crusty old curmudgeon, but IMO, you're going way too fast for my personal comfort.

Granted, anyone will get some benefit out of a DIR-F course, but this same truism applies to all training courses. I'd be inclined to say that you'll get more out of the course if you wait another 2-3 years and another 100 dives to really get to know the basics of yourself, air, etc, and their interactions before getting into the derivatives. What you really need right now is a friend who will mentor you on the basics of diving, knowing and understanding buoyancy control, weighting, etc...get 80% of the way to someone's personal definition of "perfect". Keep in mind that a good diver transcends the equipment that he happens to be wearing, and that being "Tek" is not necessarily some universal goal that all divers must strive to achieve.

I say this particularly because anyone can learn a tremendous amount about diving and DCS theory for under $100...the price of a couple of good books. One recommended read - although they're now a bit dated, is pretty much anything from author John Lippman. If you're lucky, snag a copy of this out-of-print book, "Deeper into Diving".

A monkey could be taught to use tables in a square profile dive...

True, but quite embarassingly, a very large percentage of DM's and Instructors failed to do it properly at DEMA several years ago. Hate to say it, but none of the traditional Rec Agency's prerequisites for any of their Professional certification levels require even a High School Diploma (let alone any College Degree), from DM to the very top. I've known some Instructors who are literal high school drop-outs, and unfortunately, that lack of background sometimes shows.

Now this isn't to say that there aren't some smart people teaching diving - it simply says that the Agency Standards don't require it.

For example, if you review the formal education credentials of GUE's currently listed 32 instructors, while you'll find several with College degrees, there's not a single person listed in the entire organization has a Degree in Education from any College (Accredited or not). BTW, I don't mean to pick on GUE with this illustration - its merely convenient because they're available online. IMO PADI is significantly worse, because they represent their Course Director training as the equivalent of a full College Graduate Degree!


... but the theory behind it, the "WHY" is apparently not so easy. I think it's pretty obvious that until DIR-F, I should be relying on my suunto for multilevel dives such as the ones I did this weekend. I felt very safe.

And even after your DIR-F class. If your objective is to gain insight into deco theory, I'd personally be very cynical of the GUE DIR-F class: I'm not sure how much this particular class teaches, and if it teaches their "sum to 120 rule", this is IMO the smallest possible refinement of the old 1960's adage of "Can't get bent on a single tank", and adds nothing to the student's understanding of historical or contemporary deco theory.

A knowledgable consumer, when subjected to a "Sales Pitches" about one deco model versus another, is aware that all published dive deco models are empirically based, not deterministic, and are known to contain stochastic elements of uncertainty. All of them have inserted conservatism somewhere to manage risk...its just a question of where, and being able to find it.


(with a Suunto)...after my third dive, I called it quits because I said to myself, "I'm probably full of nitrogen."

The Suunto is very (some would say downright rediculously) conservative, particularly once it goes into Deco...I have one and I've seen it take ~30 minutes to clear a stop that other models would have cleared in 5-10 minutes.

Be aware that a problem that has manifested itself is that as the industry has grown is that the manufacturers have become extremely liability-adverse, so their M-values have shrunk in an attempt to reduce risk. This has resulted in very conservative dive computers, and the Suunto is an unfortunately a prime example: it is extremely conservative versus the industry's predecessors, with the historical poster child of liberalism being the ORCA/EIT dive computers.

-hh and departurediver: your comments were just what I was looking for, Thank you both. -hh your explanation was very helpful and you can bet I'll be reading that over to help my understanding.

My pleasure. As I said above, find a couple of good books for <$100 and read through them at your own pace. You can do this before venturing into a classroom to try to learn whatever it is that that Agency is trying to promote on a fixed classroom schedule, and you'll end up getting a lot more out of your training investment.

Personally, I enjoy the theory, and it is always a good thing for those who need to apply it, but that's a simplistic 'Motherhood' statement that applies to everything, not just diving. We need to recognize that we can go (and have gone) a long ways without really needing to know all too much.

In saying this, I'm not trying to advocate or defend "blind faith" elements, but what I'm saying is that there's also a great degree of pragmatism and the key is to resist training in absolute rules - everything from this to inverted profiles are really just "Very Good Standard Practices to be Followed Until You Learn More". Pragmatically, there's a lot that you can do and enjoy without having to understand all of its complexities, just like we can take on the responsibility of driving a car without knowing what the theoretically ideal Inductance value is for an Ignition Coil.



-hh
 
-hh:
Call me a crusty old curmudgeon, but IMO, you're going way too fast for my personal comfort.

Granted, anyone will get some benefit out of a DIR-F course, but this same truism applies to all training courses. I'd be inclined to say that you'll get more out of the course if you wait another 2-3 years and another 100 dives to really get to know the basics of yourself, air, etc, and their interactions before getting into the derivatives. What you really need right now is a friend who will mentor you on the basics of diving, knowing and understanding buoyancy control, weighting, etc...get 80% of the way to someone's personal definition of "perfect".

Mentors are always good if you can find a good one but in general I disagree with your advice here. I had the chance to watch a DIRF. In the class were new divers and long time divers. I can't say either group had an easier time. The long time divers just might have more bad habits to break. There's nothing in the class that's really advanced other than asking students to think about what they're doing and to do it off the bottom. Whether it's in a DIRF or some place else the sooner a diver gets started down this path the better.
True, but quite embarassingly, a very large percentage of DM's and Instructors failed to do it properly at DEMA several years ago. Hate to say it, but none of the traditional Rec Agency's prerequisites for any of their Professional certification levels require even a High School Diploma (let alone any College Degree), from DM to the very top. I've known some Instructors who are literal high school drop-outs, and unfortunately, that lack of background sometimes shows.

But demonstrating the ability to use tables and the understanding of basic decompression theory is a requirement of every DM and instructor course that I know of.
Now this isn't to say that there aren't some smart people teaching diving - it simply says that the Agency Standards don't require it.

Are you confusing formal education with intellegence?
And even after your DIR-F class. If your objective is to gain insight into deco theory, I'd personally be very cynical of the GUE DIR-F class: I'm not sure how much this particular class teaches, and if it teaches their "sum to 120 rule", this is IMO the smallest possible refinement of the old 1960's adage of "Can't get bent on a single tank", and adds nothing to the student's understanding of historical or contemporary deco theory.

I think you're wrong here. You should really get familiar with how they teach dive planning before saying something like this. The "120" thing is just a convenient way to remember the "NDL" within a given range. You could just as easily ise the NDL's from the PADI tables if you know them.

They are not teaching divers any thing that even resembles what you're describing.
 
-hh,
Well just so you know, I'm interested in DIR but have no desire to go deep, start cave diving or exceed my no stop limits. I do want... great bouyancy, the ability to stay close to the bottom with good trim and not create a silt out, and the knowledge of what could happen and how to prevent or possibly manage the situation.

I have had a hard time finding good reading on diving. I have some SSI and PADI books, but (hope this doesn't upset anyone) SSI books seem to mostly push sales of equipment (very commercialized, don't want to knock my ssi instructor though- I was very lucky to have had him), while PADI seems to encourage that anyone can dive. The GUE DIR-F book was the first book I have read that focused on the diving and on preparation. Yes, I did pickup the subliminal buy halcyon messages. I have learned a lot here on scubaboard and nobody is telling me things based on what they need to sell in their store. I take everything with a grain of salt that I here in any lds.

DIR seems to focus on what's most important to me- safety. I want to do anything possible to be as prepared as possible. I agree that waiting for DIR-F class would be a good idea. I think whats most important for me is to dive more, and I've been doing my best within my budget. Thanks for the new reading suggestions. I have been reading a lot since my certification, just recently finished the book on solo diving, which I didn't feel would be helpful to me. However, it taught me a lot about self sufficiency whether with a buddy or not (No... I don't plan on solo diving anytime soon).

Thanks,
Tony.
 
tonyc:
-hh,
Well just so you know, I'm interested in DIR but have no desire to go deep, start cave diving or exceed my no stop limits. I do want... great bouyancy, the ability to stay close to the bottom with good trim and not create a silt out, and the knowledge of what could happen and how to prevent or possibly manage the situation.

I have had a hard time finding good reading on diving. I have some SSI and PADI books, but (hope this doesn't upset anyone) SSI books seem to mostly push sales of equipment (very commercialized, don't want to knock my ssi instructor though- I was very lucky to have had him), while PADI seems to encourage that anyone can dive. The GUE DIR-F book was the first book I have read that focused on the diving and on preparation. Yes, I did pickup the subliminal buy halcyon messages. I have learned a lot here on scubaboard and nobody is telling me things based on what they need to sell in their store. I take everything with a grain of salt that I here in any lds.

DIR seems to focus on what's most important to me- safety. I want to do anything possible to be as prepared as possible. I agree that waiting for DIR-F class would be a good idea. I think whats most important for me is to dive more, and I've been doing my best within my budget. Thanks for the new reading suggestions. I have been reading a lot since my certification, just recently finished the book on solo diving, which I didn't feel would be helpful to me. However, it taught me a lot about self sufficiency whether with a buddy or not (No... I don't plan on solo diving anytime soon).

Thanks,
Tony.

your on the right track. Personally, I would not wait to take a DIR-F but I would take one sooner than later. The sooner you can build good solid skills instead of building bad habits the better you will be. If you are having a hard time finding a DIR-F in your area, my suggetion would be to PM Mike Kane (MHK) and set one up. Mike is an incredible instructor and is very easy to work with.
 
Hard to keep up with these rapid posts ... I think that you should not hesitate to take the DIR-F class. Think of it as a comfort class. It is not a Tech class. I start getting divers to think about the DIR principals in their OW class and I believe that every diver should be using a long hose for their primary with a necklace for their alternate. But the assumption is (as stated by hh) that you are comfortable diving and with your buoyancy. If you are not, then get some more dives under your belt to get the most out of the class. The DIR-F class is to help you with your buoyancy and improve it. It doesn’t expect perfection (but you should be comfortable). FYI, while the DIR-F class does discuss the 120-rule (which I don't have a big problem with ... as long as it is used to show you how to be thinking underwater), it does not go into any more theory. They leave that to other classes. This is part of what started the discussions here ... that info should be readily available ... so that divers can learn how they want to dive and manage their own risk. hh has a great point, don't worry about the complexities, just know some basics so you can enjoy your dive. Deco theory can get incredibly complex and is so much more than just typical half-time compartments and M-values. So the more you learn, the more you will be able to evaluate things for yourself ... but it doesn't sound like you need to do that yet. Just work on planning a solid dive with some conservatism, deep safety stops, slow ascent rates, and an understanding of multi-level procedures.
 

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