DIR, RDP & computer.. ???'s from a newbie

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tonyc

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Hello all,
Just got back from diving the dive park at catalina w/ Mo2vation, Arnaud and many others- had an awesome time.

I'm a very new diver, but interested in DIR. My question is concerning DIR and tables. I understand (I think :) ) that DIR is anti- computer, and I have been using the SSI tables when I log and plan dives. I also have some navy tables that are pretty much the same with a little less conservatism. I wear a suunto vyper, but log and plan dives just using the tables.

So the problem is this weekend (with the help of an extremely large and heavy tank) I logged some long dives with a max depth of 65, 87 and 79 feet. They were multilevel and my problem is I was taught that bottom time is time till you start your direct ascent to the surface at 30 foot per minute. Well, we slowly made are way back and did not spend much time at max depth. It was much slower than 30 foot/minute (more like 5 foot/minute). I was never out of no-deco time on my suunto vyper. On the tables I'm into deco on the first dive. I know PADI uses the wheel (which I don't own).

How would the DIR compliant diver figure RDG's etc??? Do you guys use your wrist computers for deco info? What tables/wheels would be best???

Thanks in advance,
Tony.
 
tonyc:
My question is concerning DIR and tables. I understand (I think :) ) that DIR is anti- computer.

Several very smart people who can articulate a thoughtful answer (much better than I could) to your very reasonable question will chime in soon.

But FWIW, DIR isn't anti-computer. We're anti-shut-off-you-mind-and-let-the-computer-tell-you-what-to-do. Many of us wear "computers." They don't revoke your decoder ring for that.

I keep it in gauge and use it as a very expensive bottom timer and back up pressure device :bonk: It doesn't beep me when I'm too deep, gone too far or made a bad left turn. I constantly remain aware of what's going on. I can estimate time to within a minute or so, estimate depth to within a few feet and estimate gas within a hundred pounds or so - throughout the entire dive, and stay within my plan (or change it if I see something cool and still be OK.) I don't turn off my mind and let it think for me.

Speaking of thinking, look at your thinking here...

* You've discovered that using tables to plan out a square profile isn't really how people dive

* You're on the way to concluding that every dive is a multi-level dive, and there must be another way to approach the planning

* You're doing deep stops (even though you may not have known it, we were) and slow ascents

* I know from our talks that your objectives are really close to mine - you're not in this to become joe-tech, but you want to be a rec diver with mad skills. The good news is planning no-deco single tank stuff is easier than it may at present seem

* When I stuck the fifteen-foot stop, and you were flailing a bit, you rejected my rock offering (to offset your floatyness) - and by sculling your feet you were able to hold, then make a slow horizontal ascent. You get it, and you're working on the right stuff

You're going to enjoy this journey, my friend. Keep asking "why" and "how." Keep searching.

K
 
well said Mo2vation, there is no issue in having a computer on your wrist, I use two. But when doing deco dives the profile is more square than 'V' shapes so the idea of bottom time then accent time to give you a total run time would be correct. But if you are diving in such a way that you would not go into deco on normal tables then you are not needing deco calculations.
Remember that the brain should be switched on at all times, and you should have created a plan of the dive with bail out and alternative table to address the more depth or time posibilities.
I have these written on my wrist slate, and have then in my head.

Some times you plan for deco dives with real deco, sometimes it's practise deco stops and some times the dive is totally multi-level.

It can get confusing but I find that planning the dive, is the best way to understand what tables or rules to follow. It helps decide if you want the computers in guage or dive mode. Some times I have one in guage and one in dive - to allow me to adapt to changes in plan while under water (of course the plan should not change - but diving like life is not perfect).
 
Hey Tony!

A few things to answer your questions.

1. The Wheel wouldn't help either because it imposes certain intermediary depths based on your max depth. Some like it for planning. I don't. I've used mine only to take the DM test. It's now resting in my scuba library and I have no intention to remove it from there any time soon.

2. A table is the "preset" (and rigid) output of an algorithm. A computer may or may not use the same algorithm. The big difference is that the computer consistently reruns the algorithm based on your current time and depth during the dive, thus giving you a "live" output of the algorithm.

3. What really matters is that you get a sense of the algorithm behind your computer or your table. Spend some time looking at your table or the planning mode of your computer and see if you can find some patterns. In a way, try to think beyond what the table or computer says. Do not just be passively served with the results. If you understand the process, you'll be able to figure out the output yourself.

4. If you look at the log on your Vyper, you'll see that our average depth on these dives was pretty shallow. We usually try to get our average depth as close as possible to 50% of our max depth by ascending slowly, making several stops on our way up, and relaxing in the shallow as long as possible.

5. Keep learning. We all do. It's a never ending process.
 
tonyc:
Hello all,

I'm a very new diver, but interested in DIR. My question is concerning DIR and tables. I understand (I think :) ) that DIR is anti- computer, and I have been using the SSI tables when I log and plan dives. I also have some navy tables that are pretty much the same with a little less conservatism. I wear a suunto vyper, but log and plan dives just using the tables.

Thanks in advance,
Tony.

Tony,

I snipped the rest of your question, but in short it seems that as a new diver you are concerned with conflicting information that you hear from various shops and/or agencies respecting computers and the DIR position. You are correct to ask the questions, and we very strongly encourage you to ask WHY!!!! If someone can't answer the WHY, then you probably shouldn't listen to them.

That being said, since you are new to diving, let me tell you up front that I am a GUE instructor, and this conversation has been very heavily discussed in the past so feel free to do a search, but realize that after a few exchanges more often then not the threads tend to denigrate.

In short, we have a few issues with divers that rely solely on computers. Specifically, most of the earlier models of computers use an algorithm that we disagree with. Most tables, and consequently, most computers use the Buhlman algorithm. The Buhlman algorithm has been around since approx. 1958 and in various forms is the mathematical model used to generate most of the recreational dive planners [ FTR, PADI uses a different model] and as computers became readily available Buhlman's model worked it's way into the early computers. Accordingly, what a diver was then faced with was "planning" a dive using a Buhlman model, this is the tables that you learned in your OW class. The benefit of computers was that they allowed for in-water calcualtions based on real-time dive information such as depth and time. This advance made it easier for divers to extend their bottom times when their profiles allowed for multi-level diving, it also allowed for divers to rely on the pixels to compute repetitive diving and multi-day diving. Over a period of time what you began seeing was that divers no longer paid much attention to their dive planning and became solely reliant on computers. At GUE we teach that divers should turn their brain on underwater, rather then rely on a device that could fail and should it fail it would leave the diver without access to critical information. Lately you've even seen agencies go so far as to no longer teach basic decompression theory in OW classes, but teach divers how to use a computer. That is tantamount to not teaching your child math in school because eventually they'll use a calculator anyway..

Moreover, as I noted, the earlier computers relied upon a algorithm that we believe is outdated. As more and more modeler's studied decompression theory it started to become clear that a diver that incorporates deep stops into their dive profile actually achieve better results, whereas the Buhlman model would penalize you for incorporating deep stops into your profile. So in esesence your computer was working against you. Recently the dive industry has embraced the "newer" decompression algorthims that provide for a bubble mechanic model(s), ie; VPM and/or RGBM..

In really brief terms, the Buhlman model tracked the amount of nitrogen in your tissues and used that as a basis for your M-value, the amount of nitrogen loading a given tissue group could tolerate and still allow a diver to surface without experiencing signs or symptoms of DCS. The VPM and/or the RGBM models are what are called a dual-phase model meaning that in addition to tracking the nitrogen loading they also track the size and formation of bubbles. As a result of concerning their models with bubble size and formation they've found that incorporating deep stops into your profile you allow the bubble size to shrink as you ascend, whereas if you juxtapose that concept against the Buhlman model, as you are stopping on your ascent the Buhlman model provides for the fact that you are still "on-gassing" and accumulating nitrogen loading, and thus shortens your time at depth and/or makes you stay at your safety stop longer. That's a very brief overview of a complex topic, but the point of course being, is that if a diver solely relies on a device such as a computer, and that device fails and the diver has no background, education or experience in learning basic decompression theory he endangers himself, he may be forced to sit out a day of diving all because they lacked the basic information we teach.

Fundamentally, that is the rationale behind our belief that divers are better off turning their brains on underwater rather then relying on expensive devices that may provide faulty information. Notwithstanding the fact that generally speaking, most computers set the conservation factors in their NDL's to the lowest common denominator and doesn't allow the diver to adjust for the fact that perhaps they don't smoke, perhaps they are physically fit, perhaps they've had a PFO test, or are beyond the scope of many of the limiting factors that contribute to DCS..

Hope that explains it, but if not let me know and I'll be happy to help..

Later
 
MHK, this is slightly off-topic but spurred by your comments. I was looking at the rec triox materials because I hope to take the course this year. Why are Bulhman-based tables specified?
 
reubencahn:
MHK, this is slightly off-topic but spurred by your comments. I was looking at the rec triox materials because I hope to take the course this year. Why are Bulhman-based tables specified?

I appreciate the question, but please understand many of these type of questions become much clearer during the class. In short, the concept is we teach is to use a baseline that is easy to calcualte in your head "on the fly", once you accept the baseline premise then all you need to do is make a few adjustments during your dive and you are then able to calcualte NDL's on the fly.. In the instant case, we use the 120 rule as a baseline..

Hope that helps..

Later
 
Mo2vation:
* When I stuck the fifteen-foot stop, and you were flailing a bit, you rejected my rock offering (to offset your floatyness) -

You are the king of the rock assisted safety stop...:D
 
bwerb:
You are the king of the rock assisted safety stop...:D

But true. There are a number of people on the board that have witnessed or benefited from my ROBA (Rock-Optional Buoyancy Assistant.)

My first Intro Dive, the Instructor had me terribly under weighted, and he handed me a rock in Mission Bay so I could stay down. As it was only about 10 feet, I sort of used it to craw along the bottom... not too unlike the tasteless National Lampoon Frog on a roller board.

Guess the practice has stayed with me...


K
 
First off, Thanks Mo2vation and Arnaud for the words of encouragement. You guys are great and I enjoyed diving with you, checking out your gear and everything.. I'm hoping some of your skill has rubbed off.

next, MHK, Thanks for the great response, but the little square in my log book is still blank and I'm staring at it with a confused look. This might not be an easily answerable question here on the scubaboard. This was never a post about whether or not DIR philosophy allows computers. I'm all for the "brain engaged mode" underwater and safety is what draws me toward DIR. Up until this weekend (thanks to a 120cuft. tank) I always ran out of air before bottom time in the table ndl. Also boat dives, such as the Yukon, fit nicely on the table and bottom time is when you get back to the mooring line. The problem this saturday is that half of my dive time was spent on the ascent from max depth. Now, Shouldn't I be taking on nitrogen at that time??

I wish I could figure out how to post my dive profile, but I'll try to explain it. Lets take the dive on the Sue Jack, second dive of the day....

1.) for the first seven minutes we decended to a depth around 87 feet.
80 ft/7min= 11.4 ft/min.
2.) We hung out on the wreck for nine minutes (16 min total time) and
depth was between 87 and 68 foot.
3.) Then we headed back at a slow ascent which has a nice straight line
when graphed and follows a slope of about 4 foot per minute.

So my questions are....

1.) At that slow of an ascent aren't I still taking on more nitrogen on the way back? at 60 foot, 50 foot etc?

2.) Is it safe to use my bottom time as 16 minutes for this dive- SSI says
bottom time is time till you start your direct ascent at 30ft/min- not 4
foot per minute.

I want to know how to figure out nitrogen loading on the multilevel dives without just looking at the time left on my vyper. At my job I give lots of drugs that run continously based on weight and although the pumps can be programmed and make it a "brainless" operation, I still like to do the calculations myself. I want that same understanding when it comes to diving.

Thanks in advance,
Tony.
 
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