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DIR Forum
- Thread starter RTodd
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You are correct but they just don't get it. Thal and DA Aqua are the problem in the DIR forum, period. Trace is a great example too. He just wants to argue about it and promote his DIR divers are lemming stance. But since he does it in a nice way, those that don't fully understand DIR don't see it.
This is looking like a great opportunity for me to finally stop wasting time on diving message boards.
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First off, debates and discussions about everything DIR are welcome, and always have been. It's not THAT you voice your opinion that draws ire ... it's HOW you choose to do it.
You're a very literate person, Trace. I generally enjoy reading your posts. I didn't enjoy some of the comments you put in this thread. And I think you knew ... as you pointed out early in the thread ... EXACTLY what the response would be.
That's called trolling ...
TraceMalin:
You're a smart fellow ... you chose your words purposefully. And as you know, words have meaning. The onces I've highlighted above were meant to be insulting.
You can do better than that.
PS - with respect to the bolded sentence above, that is a correct assumption. See the first response to the OP in this thread. I have never made any secret of the fact that I solo dive, or that I have received the bulk of my training through non-DIR organizations such as NAUI, IANTD, and NSS-CDS. The difference between you and me, Trace, is that I don't push those non-DIR views in THIS FORUM. Nor do I choose words I KNOW to be inflammatory to describe those among us who choose a more strict adherance to the DIR system. This forum is not the place to discuss a "better way". It's inappropriate.
I have found that when you treat people with respect, you'll be treated respectfully in return. And I don't come here to push a "better" way ... I come here to learn the advantages of the system, and weigh them in my own mind against other ways I've learned to achieve the same goal. What I ultimately decide to do has no bearing on the discussions here ... there are other forums for that.
It's called diplomacy, Trace. You don't go into somebody's house and start telling them why their neighbor has a better way of doing things. That's just damn rude.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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- Messages
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ScubaBoard exists to provide a forum in which scuba diving topics may be discussed.
DIR has been an important movement within scuba diving since at least the days that Parker was leading the WKPP. IIRC, Irvine's seminal article on 'DIR' was published in 1995. Since then the topic has engendered a lot of discussion.
Clearly discussion of DIR has a place on SB. Even now, some fifteen years later, it continues to resonate with divers at all levels, for various reasons.
Whether you believe it or not, SB wants the DIR forums to be successful - to be informative and useful, and to be a place that informed divers want to visit to discuss various topics.
The question is how to support the forums to best meet the needs of SB participants.
A number of folks have worked hard over the years, including nearly everyone currently involved in this thread, to achieve these objectives. Those of you who have been here for 4, 5 years remember the evolutionary development of the forums.
They continue to evolve to meet changing parameters, (and will likely always need tweaking - SB is not a static environment, it morphs nearly continuously as the participant community changes.)
So we're open to ideas.
Brian, I get it. It isn't the new, uninformed divers who are the problem children.
Bob, I see what you are saying.
Trace, I did not mean to imply your comments are unwelcome. On the contrary, this is - as Jeff noted - a "discussion" board. We discuss things, especially a topic that itself is not static, but changes over time. (Hell, when Georgitis was in Seattle, does anyone remember the grumbling over "east coast DIR" versus "west coast DIR"?) A civil discussion can be beneficial, but for the general benefit of all users we're attempting to confine one level of discourse in one forum; and a separate - shall we say "more challenging" dialog in a separate forum. It's difficult to examine details of, say, deco with various gas mixtures, when you have participants who merely wish to be disruptive dropping grenades and seagulling the threads. (fly in, crap all over everything, fly away...) So Trace, you certainly have a voice and viewpoint and your input is welcomed.
For the purposes of attempting to reduce frustration, reduce friction, and keep threads content-focused in ways that are meaningful, however, we're attempting to corral one type of content in one forum, and another type of content in a different forum.
And speaking as a guy who has hung around learning from you all since 2002, let me add one final comment.
Each of you has taught me a lot, and I respect you all.
I would like to ask you all, as senior, educated, well-informed divers and contributors to this community, to engage in this dialog with respect for one another.
If we, those who are most familiar with either the functioning of the board, the SB community, or the forums/topics being discussed, cannot talk about these issues without insulting one another, scathing sarcasm, or short cutting remarks, how can we expect the broader community to do so?
All of us need to be better than this.
Keep any ideas for improvement coming in, and lets see if we cannot improve the utility of the DIR forums at least somewhat.
Regards,
Doc
DIR has been an important movement within scuba diving since at least the days that Parker was leading the WKPP. IIRC, Irvine's seminal article on 'DIR' was published in 1995. Since then the topic has engendered a lot of discussion.
Clearly discussion of DIR has a place on SB. Even now, some fifteen years later, it continues to resonate with divers at all levels, for various reasons.
Whether you believe it or not, SB wants the DIR forums to be successful - to be informative and useful, and to be a place that informed divers want to visit to discuss various topics.
The question is how to support the forums to best meet the needs of SB participants.
A number of folks have worked hard over the years, including nearly everyone currently involved in this thread, to achieve these objectives. Those of you who have been here for 4, 5 years remember the evolutionary development of the forums.
They continue to evolve to meet changing parameters, (and will likely always need tweaking - SB is not a static environment, it morphs nearly continuously as the participant community changes.)
So we're open to ideas.
Brian, I get it. It isn't the new, uninformed divers who are the problem children.
Bob, I see what you are saying.
Trace, I did not mean to imply your comments are unwelcome. On the contrary, this is - as Jeff noted - a "discussion" board. We discuss things, especially a topic that itself is not static, but changes over time. (Hell, when Georgitis was in Seattle, does anyone remember the grumbling over "east coast DIR" versus "west coast DIR"?) A civil discussion can be beneficial, but for the general benefit of all users we're attempting to confine one level of discourse in one forum; and a separate - shall we say "more challenging" dialog in a separate forum. It's difficult to examine details of, say, deco with various gas mixtures, when you have participants who merely wish to be disruptive dropping grenades and seagulling the threads. (fly in, crap all over everything, fly away...) So Trace, you certainly have a voice and viewpoint and your input is welcomed.
For the purposes of attempting to reduce frustration, reduce friction, and keep threads content-focused in ways that are meaningful, however, we're attempting to corral one type of content in one forum, and another type of content in a different forum.
And speaking as a guy who has hung around learning from you all since 2002, let me add one final comment.
Each of you has taught me a lot, and I respect you all.
I would like to ask you all, as senior, educated, well-informed divers and contributors to this community, to engage in this dialog with respect for one another.
If we, those who are most familiar with either the functioning of the board, the SB community, or the forums/topics being discussed, cannot talk about these issues without insulting one another, scathing sarcasm, or short cutting remarks, how can we expect the broader community to do so?
All of us need to be better than this.
Keep any ideas for improvement coming in, and lets see if we cannot improve the utility of the DIR forums at least somewhat.
Regards,
Doc
A ScubaBoard Staff Message...
Or should the DPZ be fully moderated?
If we can gain an insight or consensus on how the DIR folk would like their forum moderated, I am more than open to your ideas. Please: if you are not DIR, I really don't want to hear your solution: this is about what they want. We can always appoint more DIR mods, but they will need to abide by the rules for all of our moderators: no bitch slapping allowed. It's quite easy for any Advisor to restrict access for ANYONE, including mods and themselves, to this forum. The DIR mod(s) need only ask and give a reasonable explanation for the action.
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NetDoc:
How about asking Doc Intrepid to do it ... he seems to have a pretty good handle on the situation. Or at least have him work in some oversight capacity, rather than those on your staff who seem to have an axe to grind with the DIR community.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
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jjones9527
Contributor
Personally I think this whole thread should have been cut around post 20 and moved into the open DIR forum, thus leaving the original question to those of us that actually appreciate the DPZ.
I believe there is a need for 2 forums. One for those who continually need to ask about bolt snaps, hose lengths or whether this or that is DIR, and don't know how to use the search function to find the other 500 threads that have been made on the same subject. You can also lump in those that wish to argue the "whys". Frankly I have no time for endless debates or answering the same question over and over and over.
The second should be a place, as I believe the DPZ was originally intended, for those who actually follow the system, to discuss the finer points. This however by default makes the DPZ a very low activity place, as those who are practitioners don't have too many questions. It often comes down to slight nuances and differences wrt agency, what was vogue when you did "X" course, or how things have evolved. This however I find most beneficial, as reading what others are doing can help bring forth ideas that my group may not have thought of. While DIR is a system, there is still room for thinking divers to adapt procedures to their specific environment and diving. Only when it becomes blatantly non DIR should it be moved out. Any one who is a practitioner should have a pretty good idea where that line lies. The problem then becomes one of vetting out who should be able to post. Is DIR training enough? I know lots of people who have done some form of DIR training, but don't follow the system at all. Should that person be able to offer DIR advise?
I'm a mod on another board where we have had almost the opposite problem. Most of the mods as well as the board owner are very DIR centric. We've had to adjust our behaviour to allow the others an equal opportunity to voice their opinions. Essentially the board is open to all, however there are "sanctuaries" for everything from DIR, Sidemounting, RB's, etc. Any bashing, trolling or off topic discussions are swiftly moved elsewhere. Any moderator who takes an active part in a discussion is not allowed to moderate it. Of course that is on the honour system. In the case of the DPZ here, I don't think any mod who is not a DIR practitioner should have any rights in the DIR forum, and especially the DPZ.
This is pretty long and probably very disjointed but I will finish with this. I came back to SB when talk of cleaning up the DIR forum and creating the DPZ occurred. However its starting to head back down the drain, once again. If you want the DIR forum to succeed, give the DIR mods the power to make it happen.
I believe there is a need for 2 forums. One for those who continually need to ask about bolt snaps, hose lengths or whether this or that is DIR, and don't know how to use the search function to find the other 500 threads that have been made on the same subject. You can also lump in those that wish to argue the "whys". Frankly I have no time for endless debates or answering the same question over and over and over.
The second should be a place, as I believe the DPZ was originally intended, for those who actually follow the system, to discuss the finer points. This however by default makes the DPZ a very low activity place, as those who are practitioners don't have too many questions. It often comes down to slight nuances and differences wrt agency, what was vogue when you did "X" course, or how things have evolved. This however I find most beneficial, as reading what others are doing can help bring forth ideas that my group may not have thought of. While DIR is a system, there is still room for thinking divers to adapt procedures to their specific environment and diving. Only when it becomes blatantly non DIR should it be moved out. Any one who is a practitioner should have a pretty good idea where that line lies. The problem then becomes one of vetting out who should be able to post. Is DIR training enough? I know lots of people who have done some form of DIR training, but don't follow the system at all. Should that person be able to offer DIR advise?
I'm a mod on another board where we have had almost the opposite problem. Most of the mods as well as the board owner are very DIR centric. We've had to adjust our behaviour to allow the others an equal opportunity to voice their opinions. Essentially the board is open to all, however there are "sanctuaries" for everything from DIR, Sidemounting, RB's, etc. Any bashing, trolling or off topic discussions are swiftly moved elsewhere. Any moderator who takes an active part in a discussion is not allowed to moderate it. Of course that is on the honour system. In the case of the DPZ here, I don't think any mod who is not a DIR practitioner should have any rights in the DIR forum, and especially the DPZ.
This is pretty long and probably very disjointed but I will finish with this. I came back to SB when talk of cleaning up the DIR forum and creating the DPZ occurred. However its starting to head back down the drain, once again. If you want the DIR forum to succeed, give the DIR mods the power to make it happen.
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