DIR Feedback

[roakey]

Originally posted by NetDoc
Call me a rebel, an infidel or a heretic. That's OK. I do like some of the stuff I see in DIR, but a lot of it is plain excessive for the open water diving that I and all of my friends do. The dogmatic approach to theories is also bothersome. When a precept has been anointed by the DIR papacy, then you guys will defend it ad nauseum, even to stretching logic and reason. If you don't agree with it, then you just "don't know how to sing". I think it a shame that ya'll are not encouraged to question what you believe and how you dive each and every day. No, I am not around you guys that much to really make that an assertion of fact, so I will offer that up as an extrapolation of what I see on the board and elsewhere.

In my understanding of diving, including gear, attitude, physiology and protocols, it is not as important to me WHO is right but rather WHAT is right. The former has to do with egos, and the latter with facts and logic. Unfortunately, DIR has anointed only one man to consecrate the various particulars of its sect. If GI were to say you have to jump up and down three times to get your fins to seat properly, many would do it. In fact, legions would, out of deference to Father George. That the man has more time underwater and understands diving far more than me is not in dispute. He has forgotten more than I will ever know. However, I can point out a myriad of people like that, who actually make more sense to me. He is human, and not everything he says is valid. He doth maketh mistakes! And ego is a poor substitute for reason and logic.

Let's see: “dogmatic, precept, anointed, papacy, anointed (again), consecrate, sect, Father George.”

Glad you think the DIR attack modes have softened, looks like your anti-DIR mode is just warming up. Sorry you can't see that we're all arriving at the DIR conclusion by thinking our way there, but by demonstrating just how hard your mind has slammed shut, I'm not surprised. This whole church bit is really, really old, but I'm sure you think you're being original.

Roak

Ps. As for the singing... Guess that one slid right on by...

 

[bradymsu]

Mike,

My comments about formal training weren't directed at you or any one diver on the board. I have no idea what training you've done and with who. Several months ago, I did a deeper dive on a charter (within recreational limits) with a lady who I didn't know very well, but said she dove DIR and had the kit to play the part. I made the mistake about not asking about her training and there were problems during the dive. I found out later she was diving outside of her training and experience levels. I've learned to ask more questions now about potential dive buddies. My point is that I care less about whether a buddy breathes a certain hose, has bungied wings, etc. than if that person has the proper training to do particular dive.

I imagine George Irving, like a lot of the upper tier in the dive world, doesn't have a lot of certs because they learned to dive in a different era. They also took a lot of risks and a lot of them died, especially cavers. I would be very surprised if JJ, George, or any of the DIR/GUE leadership would suggest that formal technical training isn't a very important thing to have. You can't get in the many of the caves in Florida without it. You can't buy tri-mix at any reputable dive shop without the proper certs either.

I agree with you 100% on the Deep Air issue. I think it is crazy to dive on air below 130' and I'll be glad when the day comes when all the organizations, including IANTD, follow the lead of GUE and quit teaching it.

I won't offer any defense of Mr. Gilliam because I don't know much about him other than his philosophy on beer. But Tom Mount has an incredibly safe record and has made outstanding contributions to both tech diving and cave diving. Even if we don't agree with everything he believes in, he still deserves our respect.

 

[bradymsu]

Mike,

This is off-topic, but is there a shop in the U.P. that does tri-mix? Can you get it at Whitefish?

-Brady

 

[Lost Yooper]

I too have had my share of bad experiences with people who acted like they knew more than they did. Gotta watch it on those charters. I had one guy geared up OK go ballistic on me a few years ago (had like 12 dives doing 125' in the Straits). I think he lied to get on the boat .

I suspect you're right regarding cave training. There's a lot to learn about caves. Irvine doesn't seem to have a problem teaching deco procedures, physiology, blending and other stuff to just about anyone. Most of that stuff is theoretical (ie. requires a bunch of reading). JJ's a salesman, so his position is obvious. I've topped out at TDI's Adv. Nitrox, but tired of their BS. I forget most of what I learned there and began learning from George, JJ, and others. I don't place much weight on certs, but rather a person's willingness to learn, retain, and apply the right knowledge.

We'll certainly disagree about Mount. I'll give him credit that he's managed to live through some of the less than sensible things he's done. Unfortunately, both he and Gilliam are primarily responsible for the acceptance attitude of deep air and technical solo diving that is now present in the diving community. Both of these guys knew/know that deep air is/was bad, but Mount took his own sweet time to change IANTD in the US (Gillium of TDI still hasn't). Though IANTD has gotten a bit better in the US, they still allow deep air in other countries. Not having helium available shouldn't be an excuse to teach the ever dangerous deep air (I think we agree). GUE is certainly offers a model curriculum.

Take care.

Mike

 

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by Lost Yooper
I can't remember every DIR discussion that has taken place on here, but the bad ones I remember turned out that way by one or two bad apples not of the DIR crowd.
Mike
PS. Good luck to anyone willing to walk in the footsteps of Gilliam and Mount.

Let's see... so far today you've badmouthed TDI (Gilliam), IANTD (Mount) and Dive-Rite (Transpac)... is that DIR?
Rick

 

[Lost Yooper]

Yeah, there's a shop in Escanaba who has/had a trimix fill station. As far as I know, he's the only guy in the UP with an official station. There's a few other guys who home brew. We have a station in Soo Canada that we getting back up and running.

As of last summer, the guy at Curly's Motel, in Paradise, was only filling air. He claimed there wasn't enough demand for trimix/nitrox.

Escanaba is about two hours from my house here and three hours from the Soo where I usually reside. I'm not sure where the closet "official" station is south of the bridge. Basically, if you want mix up here, you get a book, read it, and do it yourself.

Mike

PS. You coming up this summer?

 

[Lost Yooper]

I'll "bad mouth" (if that's how you see it) anybody who advocates such madness as deep air. No, it's not DIR. It's called The Lost Yooper bad mouthing Gilliam and Mount for advocating stupidity for sole purpose of stuffing money in their pockets without regards to the safety of their students.

Mike

The Transpak speaks for itself .

 

[The Chairman]

Originally posted by roakey
This whole church bit is really, really old, but I'm sure you think you're being original.

Cool,

I guess I am NOT the only one to see the similarities then? How many more similar observations will it take for you to see what is obvious to "outsiders"? None are so blind that will not see. I would rather be consistent than original.

As for my mind being slammed shut... you keep thinking that Chester, if it makes you feel better. Can you not see in my posts that I can find "good" in DIR, but abhor the holier than thou (dive better than thou) complex? You had two doctors (the only ones to respond) tell US that your "theory" lacked credibility. Even in your second post or so, you re-canted part of it. But, you could NOT admit to being wrong... even in the face of doctors telling you so. Of course, you claimed a "tie" when I was not even aware we were in a tug of war. I was NOT attacking you or DIR... I was merely debunking a myth. A myth, I am sure that you still believe. I even went so far as to stop posting UNTIL we heard from others... and in many of my posts, I kept asking for solid data... not that my mind was made up... but that I wanted to see what the reality of the situation IS. So, to sum it up, you tell me to give it a rest...

Back up your theory with real data... its the best way to prove a point.

Assumptions make terrible theories.

When using logic, try not to use simplistic analogies to illustrate complex systems. It does nothing to promote your argument and reduces your credibility even further.

When you ask the experts and they ultimately don't agree with you, learn to be gracious. Practice saying "Gee, I guess I could be wrong". The humility will NOT kill you. I promise! It will actually enable you to learn more.

Finally, if I were the ONLY ONE to say that there is an ego problem here, then I would also disagree with me. That MOST of those that decry your movement point out the same things over and over again, suggest that maybe you should give it some SERIOUS thought. Gee Chester, maybe HOW you say it, IS important. We were asked in the first post to outline what we felt about the DIR philosophy. If you can’t handle the truth, then stop reading the responses.

 

[bradymsu]

Mike,

Yeah I'll be up there this summer, several times if I'm lucky. In my opinion, the U.P. has the best diving in the Great Lakes with Whitefish, Munising and Mackinac. Why the feds gave Alpena the only National Marine Sanctuary in the Great Lakes still puzzles me. I'd like to make it to Isle Royale this year too though that involves considerable effort.

I recognize that you and I both have strong feelings on opposite sides of the DIR issue and have gone head-to-head in the past, but I would welcome the chance to dive with you at some point. I have great respect for any diver who does the majority of their dives in our Lakes. Just remember that if you need one of my regs, grab the one below my chin instead of out of my mouth or you're not going to get too far!

-Brady

 

[Lost Yooper]

Brady, get a hold of me this summer. I should be in the Straits quite a bit.

Netdoc, I do think that HOW it is discussed in important (and is why I try to be civil), but it's not critical. I learned about it right from the BIG horse's mouth way back when the atmosphere wasn't so pleasant. Somehow, I managed to see through the BS and captured the relevant material -- glad I did.
The "movement" is certainly changing it's attitude, and it's becoming more acceptable to discuss and to change to DIR. DIR is spreading like a wild fire throughout the recreational and technical communities. I wonder why? Cuz we're all mean, egotistical, stuck up GI cronies? I don't think so. Because it makes sense, I think.

Mike