DIR Feedback

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by Uncle Pug


1. Not mine to change... but if it were I would change it just for you Rick....

2. It is the right way according to WKPP for their divers to dive....

because:

3. It is the only way to do the things WKPP has done....

Don't let a little acronym threaten you!!!

Oh, believe me when I say I'm not threatened by DIR... at all. When caving I endorse nearly every concept they use (except I do like my Transpac, which is verboten to them - and I ain't about to change just so I can claim to be "DIR"). I understand standardization, and I understand giving and taking orders - and I'm a team player. And when on a team I do what the team leader decides is "right" - no problem.
What I'm trying to do is shed some light on why there is this festering animosity between "DIR" and the rest of the world. This animosity stems from the name (and to a lesser degree from the conduct of some DIR devotees) and is counterproductive to everyone. Some folks just don't cotton to beiing told "you're not doing it right" when what they're doing is as right as can be for what they're doing. I, myself, don't really give a damn.
But not everyone is as thick skinned as I.
Rick

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Rick Murchison

Oh, believe me when I say I'm not threatened by DIR...

But not everyone is as thick skinned as I.
Rick

I understand you are not threatened by DIR and from your profile I can understand why you would appreciate DIR even if you weren't a diver. I can also understand why you might be offended by its presentation outside of the WKPP.

My point Rick is,

1. That the name will not change just because some are offended by it...

2. The name doesn't have anything to do with recreational divers...

3. The name accurately describes the philosopy and method that has resulted in WKPP's success...

So when folks get themselves all worked up over an acronym like this they can fail to see that they are (as far as accomplishment goes) a fly on the butt of an elephant... WKPP doesn't care what rec.scuba folks think... whether pro-DIR or anti-DIR!

The only people who can really claim to be DIR are diving in WKPP. The rest of us can adopt as much or as little as we want for our type of diving. I don't tell people that they are doing it wrong. But I will say that I was doing it wrong and DIR has helped me to make progress in correcting unsafe practices.

Thanks for the insights...

 

[Uncle Pug]

A couple of posts back I referred to "Bungee Wings of Death" ...
I apologize if I offended any of you who have the same ...
That is what the young fellow who had them called them...
And I thought it was funny....
On reflection I realize that I need to be careful....
There is already enough tension between DIR/anti-DIR to make any such light hearted ribbing come across as heavy handed slapping...

 

[The Chairman]

I am not sure they allow apologies to stokes, and your level of sensitivity to others is WAY off their stroke-o-meter! :tease: Kudos to you for that. You might even consider doing some sensitivity training for the others.

Actually, for some of us (especially me), we wear the badge of "stroke" with honor. I even refer to myself as such in some of my devil's advocate posts. I have even considered changing my nick to "Da Stroke", but felt that would be too inflammatory for even me. I have curtailed recently as the DIR attack modes have softened... don't want to fan the flames. Or the flamers...

AND... when people ask me what I dive with, I give them the straight low-down. It always seem to evoke a chuckle or two when I mention my OMS Bungeed Wings of Death. Yep, proud of them too and I love their new nick.

Call me a rebel, an infidel or a heretic. That's OK. I do like some of the stuff I see in DIR, but a lot of it is plain excessive for the open water diving that I and all of my friends do. The dogmatic approach to theories is also bothersome. When a precept has been anointed by the DIR papacy, then you guys will defend it ad nauseum, even to stretching logic and reason. If you don't agree with it, then you just "don't know how to sing". I think it a shame that ya'll are not encouraged to question what you believe and how you dive each and every day. No, I am not around you guys that much to really make that an assertion of fact, so I will offer that up as an extrapolation of what I see on the board and elsewhere.

In my understanding of diving, including gear, attitude, physiology and protocols, it is not as important to me WHO is right but rather WHAT is right. The former has to do with egos, and the latter with facts and logic. Unfortunately, DIR has anointed only one man to consecrate the various particulars of its sect. If GI were to say you have to jump up and down three times to get your fins to seat properly, many would do it. In fact, legions would, out of deference to Father George. That the man has more time underwater and understands diving far more than me is not in dispute. He has forgotten more than I will ever know. However, I can point out a myriad of people like that, who actually make more sense to me. He is human, and not everything he says is valid. He doth maketh mistakes! And ego is a poor substitute for reason and logic.

BTW, If there is more than one right way (usually is) to do something, then I want to figure out which is the "best" way. That is, at least for me and the diving that I do.

 

[Campana]

While this discussion is very interesting, I wonder if we could discuss some specifics along with, or instead of, whether we agree with the attitude of some DIR divers. These are really different topics. I think that the discussion of DIR diving can be divided up into three or more areas. The most discussed, and least interesting topic to me at this point, is the attitude of some DIR devotees. This has been pounded to death Second is the DIR philosophy of diving. Not the "don't dive with strokes" philosophy, but the philosophy of why different things are done. This is usually not discussed much. Third, and most interesting to me, is a discussion of actual, specific, DIR practices and equipment.

I am NOT a DIR diver. I don't even know what all they say, even though I have ordered the fundamentals book and will shortly know more about it than I do now.

I do want to try to shift gears, though and tell some long hose stories.

I use the long hose almost all the time. This includes while assisting OW classes as a Divemaster. The instructor I assist was reluctant to let me use it in class, until he breathed off my long hose once. Now, he points out the hose, instructs the students on how to receive air from me, and generally is favorable. The students almost always remark on what a good idea it is, along with the necklaced regulator, which they really like after they pull their own nasty yellow octo out of the mud a few times, because none of those octo retainers seem to really work that well.

Other than in training, the only time I have donated the long hose is on several dives in Cozumel. My air consumption is fairly good, and on several dives, I have offered my long hose to someone on a deeper dive so they could complete the necessary safe ascent without anxiety. It is really no big deal, just helping a buddy or newbie complete his or her safety stop. The long hose is excellent in this situation. It gives them some space and makes the dive safer.

It goes without saying that the long hose is necessary in caves because you can't dive side by side in a cave sometimes. I am pointing out here that it is desirable even when not necessary.

I don't see any reason to ever NOT use a long hose. It's not any more difficult to deal with than a short one, once you are used to it. To me, it doesn't reduce regulator performance noticeably. I just like it all the time.

Exception: every once in a while, I want to dive without all the hassles of the elaborate equipment. I call this my "doing it minimalist" or DIM diving. I want to put on my transpac, the lightest tank I have, no drysuit or wetsuit, and just jump in and pretend to be Mike Nelson for one dive. I do that a few times a year.

Anyway, gotta go diving now (Woops, solo).

What'dya think?

 

[tombiowami]

I agree with you 100% Campana. DIR got where it is by lots of disussion and trial and error. And the ones the made the errors many times did not make it back.

I was just reading about the early cave/deep divers and them figuring out it would be helpful to have BCs, backup regs, auto inflators, depth guages, etc. when they were not in use.

I am strictly an OW diver for now but like the 7' hose for two main reasons. One is that there is more room to maneuver when sharing air, and two is that if/when I go to more overhead diving, there is little to change in config. Many of the thing that seem too rigid for OW divers make sense down the road. Point being that one would feel more comfy without major equipment changes.

The book is good, and is written in a more "loving" tone if you will.

Minimialist is the way to go IMO also.

Tommy

 

[100days-a-year]

I dive DIR as needed.No long hose on rec dives.Steel with wetsuit on rec dives.Computer on rec dives.Deeper than 130 on air.Solodive 90% of the time.Stuff long hose.When doing overhead,I am more compliant with DIR principles.I am inclined to more to let others make mistakes and learn from them.The tendency for some folks in life is to attack or berate others.I try to discard that part of the conversation and focus on the content.To insist that others communicate in a manner that pleases me would be childish.I have modified rule # 1 to "Don't dive with Idiots"There are many capable divers whose equipment configuration is different than mine.Conversely,there are folks who claim and appear to adhere to DIR precepts that are unsafe anywhere other than the pool at the Y.

 

[Lost Yooper]

Originally posted by NetDoc
In my understanding of diving, including gear, attitude, physiology and protocols, it is not as important to me WHO is right but rather WHAT is right. The former has to do with egos, and the latter with facts and logic. Unfortunately, DIR has anointed only one man to consecrate the various particulars of its sect. If GI were to say you have to jump up and down three times to get your fins to seat properly, many would do it. In fact, legions would, out of deference to Father George. That the man has more time underwater and understands diving far more than me is not in dispute. He has forgotten more than I will ever know. However, I can point out a myriad of people like that, who actually make more sense to me. He is human, and not everything he says is valid. He doth maketh mistakes! And ego is a poor substitute for reason and logic.

BTW, If there is more than one right way (usually is) to do something, then I want to figure out which is the "best" way. That is, at least for me and the diving that I do.

I find it imusing when people think DIR followers blindly do whatever they are told. Maybe some do, but most do, in fact, have some mush between their ears. In fact they have to be very open minded to see through all the BS and catch the relavent stuff. I have yet to find anything GI told me that hasn't worked regarding equipment, deco procedures, or physiology. Sure, he's not a scientist, but so what? I have quizzed him for years now, and applied what I've learned, and as a result the quality of my dives have increases 1000%. It'll be a freezing day in Honolulu before someone will convince me that what he perports is out right wrong (at least what he's told me).

We can all come up with a "myriad of people" who have more experience than all of us. However, there's only a couple top banana's in the most extreme diving on earth. Not only are these guys doing what no one else has been able to do, but they don't advocate practices that are inherently dangerous for the sole purpose of selling certs (eg. deep air & IANTD, TDI, ANDi, etc.).

Some people call us naive for believing everything GI or JJ has to say at the same time they are taking an IANTD or TDI (PADI, NAUI, etc.) deep air course, ignorant of deep stops, and proper deco gasses. Now, who's being naive? What makes "sense" doesn't necessarily equate to truth. Diver's who are placing their faith in an agency or instructor (or another diver) that advocates practices that are not in the best interest of their students are doing themselves a great disservice. The scary part is the students don't even know it.

Who you learn from is more important than anything, and I can assure you that if I'm going to place any "faith" in someone, it will be in people who's primary interest is in quality backed up by REAL experience and expertise.



Mike

PS. If Irvine makes mistakes, he dies.

 

[bradymsu]

I have done a lot of reading about DIR and admire the great majority of it. The DIR crowd who have received training in-person from an instructor (not the Internet, books or videos) seem to be dedicated technical divers with safety on the top of their minds at all times. I have realized the logic of many of their techniques and have adopted them for my own use. I particularly admire the importance they put on eliminating problems before they happen and dedication to a healthy lifestyle.

However, I'm not DIR and don't strive to be. I plan my dives by hand, but wouldn't think of diving without my two dive computers because I feel they are much less likely to make a mathematical mistake underwater than I am. I switched my primary reg to my short hose because it makes sense for me. I use double wings because I don't believe in using a dry suit as a bouyancy device and prefer to dive wet if the water is warm enough. I stuff my hose because it provides a cleaner configuration. Basically, I'm not DIR because I don't believe there is any one right way for everybody-even in a cave.

As far as Scuba Board is concerned, I'd like the opportunity to discuss tech diving with all the tech divers on the board. My opinions are far more flexible than most people believe. But some manners are in order. If someone asks the DIR way to do something as a thread, I'm not going to reply to it since I'm not DIR. Equally, if a thread is about a certain dive computer or what dive computers people are most happy with, a DIR response saying that dive computers are unnecessary is just as inappropriate. If someone asks the best way to stuff the long hose, stuff the response telling them that it's best not to stuff it. Uncle Pug, you weren't here to see it, but I have gotten some rude treatment by pro-DIR folk in the past.

P.S.-If Tom Mount or Lamar Hires make mistakes, they could also die. Same goes with any of us. We alone are responsible for our lives.

 

[Lost Yooper]

Take a wild guess how many certs Irvine has. You'd be surprised how few he has. Formal training doesn't necessarily mean squat if you're not being tought correctly in a formal class. Quality experience backed up by sound theory carry more weight in my book than most anything else. So does a "willingness" to learn from those who genuinely know what they're talking about and have the experience and track record to back it up. I know you're trying to take a poke at me, and that's fine .

I can't remember every DIR discussion that has taken place on here, but the bad ones I remember turned out that way by one or two bad apples not of the DIR crowd. Perhaps the discussions being referred to were prior to me. I don't know and don't really care, I guess. Most of these discussions have turned out pretty good since I've been around.

As far as replying to various posts, if I can curtail a bad idea (as I see it), I will offer my advice. Keep in mind, many people who ask questions regarding a subject are oblivious to DIR or other ideas in which they may find intriguing. The debating (if kept civil) that goes on this, and other boards, is how the learning occurs. If someone chooses not to take my advice, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
Personally, I stay out of a lot of discussions (such as computers, rebreathers, and photography) that I don't know a great deal about. However, if someone wishes to debate about gear configuration, deco procedures, and deep air -- you can rest assured I'll chime in.




Mike

PS. Good luck to anyone willing to walk in the footsteps of Gilliam and Mount.