DIR Feedback

[Ontario Diver]

I've been reading this thread often and thinking alot

Maybe it waould be easier if DIR was DIRUWIC - Doing it Right Underwater In Caves....

But I am starting to think that the focus on the Gear and rigging it is NOT the primary value of DIR training. I was chatting with an GUE/IANTD instructor yesterday and he said that the great thing about a GUE or an IANTD course is that you can dive with any other "trained" diver without a 45 min predive discussion on the basics. If you remeber back to PADI, there is a recommendation (that we always skip when diving with our fav buddy) to agree on hand signals, OOA, missing buddy, etc, etc, etc.

But, if you are GUE trained (methinks!), these are already laid down in the "book".

My current thought (although, waiting to be corrected) is that the Standard Operating Proceedures and Immeadiate Actions, are teh real value of the course. ( The "we always do it this way" stuff) This decreases reaction time and decreases risk in a dive and in an emergency situation. In order for this to work, every needs to have a near-similar gear configuration. (I've seen the same concept at work in the Army - everyone tapes a large presure bandage to thier left webbing sholder strap. It really doesn't matter where everyone tapes it, what is important is that everyone puts it in the same place so no one goes looking for it.)

Within DIR, what came first? The long hose and bungied seconday configuration, or the the thought out procedure for sharing air?

My guess is that there are gear standards that are there for risk reduction purposes and there are gear standards that have been set up just so that every one knows where everything is. Both are valid if the intention is to make sure that in a low communication environment (silted out underwater) I can work well with the least controllable piece of equipment I have, my buddy

So before we complain about DIR Gear setups - perhaps we need to understand how it is meant to be used,not where it is meant to be used. If you are going to use the PADI standard of sharing air (not to open a discussion about which is better or "good enough) you need to use the PADI gear configuration. If you share air according to the WKPP standard actions, you'll need to use the DIR configuration. There is nothing inherently better about a 7' hose over a short hose IF YOUR BUDDY DOESN"T USE IT THE SAME WAY YOU INTENDED! (Does anyone have a story about a PADI diver going after the bungied Second?)

But yeah, I was originally put off by the "Right" lable and the attitude of some.

I'll hop off the soapbox now.

 

[neil]

Originally posted by Uncle Pug

"The core of DIR philosophy from what I've learned so far...
Is Safety:

Elimination of failure points in gear as much as possible....
Elimination of failure points in personel as much as possible....
Gearing to mitigate failures that do occur....
Training to mitigate failures that do occur...."

That's very well put. But I think that I can match most of these point for point in my OW classes, although at a more elementary level. And suited for general OW diving. DIR didn't invent safety OR safe equipment. And GUE as far as I know doesn't have a beginning class, do they?

"They do have some advantage for more advanced recreational diving but when you get to the kind of diving that most do..."

What exactly IS "more advanced rec diving"? If you are doing deco or any OHE diving, you should be looking for DIR type training, period.

"Your philosophy gets most home with the minimum of expense, training and gear.... while providing the joy of scuba diving!"

Now there's a point. You almost NEVER hear the "DIR guys" wax poetic about the sites they've seen U/W. It's always gear, training, GI3, GI tract, I- do-it-better-than-you stuff. Where's the joy? Where's the love?

I used to be a really good diver....

Aw, I bet you're a great diver now.

Neil

 

[tombiowami]

I personally do not understand the big deal on emotion, attitude, how something is said, or who says it. I look for the facts. It does not matter to me the messenger, only the message and its merits. To not look at facts or new ideas because one does not like the person? Most people at the high end of any sport, art, scientific endeavor, etc. have colorful personalities, putting it nicely. This goes for anything in life.

Tommy

 

[Lost Yooper]

Good one, Tommy.

I don't care who they are or what they call it, as long as it works. DIR, as a whole, works better in virtually every diving environment than (IMO ) any other system of diving I have seen or experienced. I have run a fair gammot of diving environments and haven't to so much as had to change a thing to the philosophy.

Emotions aside, the merits of DIR speak for themselves and has proven so to me again and again. DIR may not be the best system of diving out there, but it is better than anything I have ever seen, used, or read about for recreational and technical diving. So, until someone can step and introduce a system (not talking about just gear here) as adaptable and simple as DIR, then I'll go with what works as proven by me (in my deep cold water wrecks, ice dives, and recreational reef dives) and the extreme cavers who thunk it all up (who, BTW, have more experience then I could gain in three life times).

When I learned that I was diving "suboptimally" (not sure if that's a word) then I had an urge to change.

Take care.

Mike

Congrats to all for keeping things calm.

 

[tombiowami]

For those that get turned of by the way something is labeled... DIR came from a time when cave diving was on the chopping block of Fla. legislation to shut them down and landowners were concerned about lawsuit liability. Many people die in Fa. caves, but the massive majority are from making very poor decisions such as wrong equipment, incorrect training, etc.

When the Wkpp team went trying to get access, they let the parties know that they "did it right". For anyone not aware, since Georgie took over Wkpp, he has led over 100 people per expedition a couple times farther and deeper than anyone in the world, without a single death.

His attitude is along the lines of a Patton because many people depend on his decisions for their life, and even one slip would cost many people dearly.

The comment above about the military comparison is very valid and correct.

Also, DIR is about much, much more than just gear config, the gear config is simply and extension of the ideas, the tip of the iceberg one sees.

I myself am a fairly new diver, and find this the only actual "system" around.

I applaud all of the discussion here and willingness to look at the facts, and if they can help you, not if you like the person,
principles before personalities as they say.

If someone screamed and cussed at me that a car was about to hit me should I wait until they say it with respect?

By the way, the prez of GUE is kind of like Georges vegan eating, quietly respectful counter part and just as knowledgeable. He spoke to Georges attitude in a post once as saying he disagreed with much of Georges politics, etc, but 3 miles back in a cave at 300', those things just don't seem to matter.

Tommy

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by neil
Now there's a point. You almost NEVER hear the "DIR guys" wax poetic about the sites they've seen U/W. It's always gear, training, GI3, GI tract, I- do-it-better-than-you stuff. Where's the joy? Where's the love?

http://www.scret.org/projects.asp
http://www.gue.com/research/wkpp/reports/index.shtml
http://www.gue.com/research/britannic/index.shtml

Check out the above links...
The DIR divers are doing things that no one else has been able to do....
And coming back to describe what they have seen for those who will never be able to go there themselves...
The DIR methods are not only the right way to do what they do....
They are the only way to go there and come back to wax poetic about it!!!
And to listen to Andrew describe his experiences at 400 fsw inside (!!!) the Britannic videoing while on OC scuba.... WOW!

Of course this does not mean that DIR is the only right way to recreational dive.... that is silly... it might be a better way but it is not the only right way.... and for some recreational diving it might not even be a better way!

Of course there are DIR devotees that can only talk about equipment/training/protocols/ect. .... that is silly.... maybe when they actually become DIR divers there will be less of that from them....

And all divers seem to be gadget freaks so it is not surprising that most cue in on the equipment.

But remember... there is a huge interest in all things DIR right now and people have legitimate questions that need to be answered .... those who feel the need to give a rebuttle for every answer given often do so from an emotional POV....

Let the DIR advocates speak.... give your reasoned rebuttle and let the chips fall where they may.

This post while quoting Neil is certainly not directed at him nor any other individual.

Remember,
Uncle Pug loves you all the same

 

[Uncle Pug]

I saw a young man who had improve 1000% from the first time I dove with him a month ago...

Back then he had double tanks and some kind of a plate in an OMS something or other with the "Bungee wings of Death", a huge 40cf pony bottle. He dove a lot solo but was afraid of the water Don't ask me.... I couldn't figure that out either.

Any way this yound man was a real rototiller... I mean he was a regular trencher.... I mean this guy was goin' for his excavator patch or something.

I met him on an email list and told him I would break rule #1 and dive with him.... (when he found out what rule #1 was he was briefly offended.)

I never criticized his gear or performance. We just dove... of course I had my regular DIR partner diving with me and we let this young guy dive along with us to watch and see.

We went through several drills during the course of the dive (my partner and I) and didn't think to much of it.

Later the next day this young fella calls me and says that he was awake all night thinking about what he had seen. He had never seen anything like the way Shane and I worked together as a team. Of course he focused in on the gear right away and wanted to rig his like ours.

Well under the OMS stuff was a Halcyon BP.... so we had him buy $12 worth of webbing and some ss hardware and rigged him up proper... he traded the almost new OMS whatever in for a Halcyon wing and we went diving.

You guessed it.... he was still a rototiller.... but he was a smilin' rototiller He said he couldn't believe the difference in the way the rig swam.

I'll try to shorten this up a bit.....

Last week he took the DIRF class.... (he told me that the first day was so hard for him he cried!)

Today we dove together (with out Shane) for the first time since his class.... the change was remarkable!!!! We did drills and he is still a little rough around the edges and he can't frog yet (sort of a porpoise flutter) but his bouyancy control and trim were.... well just wonderful to behold... astounding!!!! It was a thing of beauty and joy that delighted my heart and....

Enough poetic crap....

He did really good!

 

[Rick L]

I wasn't saying dir was a bad thing. I was saying everyone else
that dives with different gear is not wrong!!! I was just pointing out that gear like air2s and jacket style bcs are better for some
kinds of diving! I respect the diving they are doing but dont want to be looked down on!!!!!!!!!
ps I bought a seatec wing today so Im willing to try there way!!
Rick L

 

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by Uncle Pug

Of course this does not mean that DIR is the only right way to recreational dive.... that is silly... it might be a better way but it is not the only right way.... and for some recreational diving it might not even be a better way!

Bingo!
So change the name.
Rick

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by Rick Murchison

Bingo!
So change the name.
Rick

1. Not mine to change... but if it were I would change it just for you Rick....

2. It is the right way according to WKPP for their divers to dive....

because:

3. It is the only way to do the things WKPP has done....

Don't let a little acronym threaten you!!!