DIR-F Report - Sault Ste. Marie CANADA

[ScubaScott]

Aquamaniac once bubbled...

Perhaps your right, but it gets a bit tiring hearing the same arguements brought up time and time again, always the same comments, always the same conclusions.
Oddly enough, its nearly always from newer divers and newer members who really have no concept of the true principals.
If you disagree with the above, a quick search should resolve that real quick.
Dave

Dave - I've probably read every DIR-F post on SB over the last 2 years, and your dead on.... always the same questions, concerns and fears - many time the same conclusions. However, they can all be answer in the class itself..... what can you do.......

SS

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

So what y'all are saying is that if you're new to this community, you'd better go searching thru thousands of old postings and make sure what you want to say hasn't been covered before ... otherwise, shut up and dive ...

My, my ... what a friendly bunch ... :wacko:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Dan MacKay]

Hi all,

It is time that I do something unsual and jump into the fray here and post a couple of comments. My thanks to Scotty for being brave enough to post in the first place and his honest appraisal of his weekend and to the rest of the merry band from the Soo who came to his defence and echoed his comments. Thanks as well to MHK who was a eloquent as usual in outlining his position.

There are two main issues that we are dealing with here. One is skill and the other is safety. When discussing equipment with students is it important to let the student make their own decision as to what works and what doesn't. If all I did during the conduct of the course was to run down or bash equipment I would be doing a great disservice to my students. Believe me I feel for Scott who discovered that his brand new dry suit/under wear combination was less than optimal for the purpose that it was indended.

Now why would this matter? Well you may have gathered that we promote safety as a matter of course and anything that impinges on this is a very serious violation. Lets look at the dry suit issue from the perspective of safety.

Does it matter if he is a 'recreational' single tank diver? If a diver cannot access his/her valves it certainly is. Believe it or not folks sadly not a year passes when a diver or two dies because they leap in the water with out valves on and die simply because they cannot reach/have not practiced/forgot etc.. It is a really stupid way to die. In Scott's case I simply showed him the combination necessary to successfully complete this drill. I could have broken his arm and there was no way in heck he was going to get to his valve. I bet you are thinking that leaving a valve off could never happen to me..the guys that died probably thought that as well.

Now let us look at the dry suit from the point of skill development. Bouyancy/trim wise a tight fitting suit is perferable but not so tight as to restrict access to valve(s). Too loose and dynamic buoyancy, trim and drag become an issue. So the solution is to buy a combination that is well fitting enough to provide access to valves and not be a bag o' air.

We take great pains not to 'bash' anything. For each piece of gear we adopt the same approach as above. Show the pro's and con's and develop the criteria of a useful item them let the diver choose which manufacturer he wishes as long as the kit meets all the criteria then fine. I would imagine that it would be possible to be completely DIR without wearing anything with a Halcyon logo. One of the Halcyon advantages that someone has already mentioned is that it has a complete line of integrated gear. All this stuff costs around the same price anyway. Understand that it is our "accept no compromises" that irks most. When I run across a student that is set on using a less than optimal piece of gear(as long as it does not impact on safety), I will let him/her take it along then force them to use it in a situation where is does matter that a piece of kit be properly designed. I let them make the decision. Closed faced reels in low vis situations springs to mind.

One of the reasons we insist that our Fundamentals students be in a DIR rig is that it eliminates 80% of what used to be wasted time just watching them flail around in gear that was just not meant to aid the diver or worse designed to defeat the divers best efforts. This gives a common platform to concentrate on what is of paramount importance, that is skill development. Now most of our efforts can directed at what matters.

The truth of the matter is that equipment is the least important issue. It is just the vehicle that gets us there. It is the skill and attitude of the diver that is the most important. The race car analogy is good to some extent in that if you are striving for high performance you chose high performance gear, but it is the skill of the driver that determines a win/loss. If you LDS doesn't/won't carry what you want then get it somewhere else, but do at least show them the courtesy of asking them first and explain it to them just like that. A little respect exsisting relationships can go a long way to building local communities.

A Fundamentals course is all about finding out about yourself and your diving ability. It can be a real reality check. The cool thing is I have the best job in the world. I don't have to bark at folks and call them the 'S' word. By the time the video review is done you will know. If I asked everyone of my students at the end of a course whether or not they earned a card invariably the ones that have would answer yes and the ones the hadn't would make the honest decision to say no. This course is hard on the ego but goes miles for honest assessment of individual capabilities. As well everyone goes away with a road map of how to get to where they want to go.

So to make a long story short it is not about equipment but is all about skill, attitude and honesty. If I can provide you a with a road map of where to go and how to get there then I have done my job and it is up to the student to do the work. It is not about 'C' cards. I personally have a horrendous pass/fail ratio but have an awful number of very happy divers who have accepted the challenge laid down as goals towards personal improvement in many facets of life.

 

[MHK]

Dan MacKay once bubbled...
Hi all,

It is time that I do something unsual and jump into the fray here and post a couple of comments. My thanks to Scotty for being brave enough to post in the first place and his honest appraisal of his weekend and to the rest of the merry band from the Soo who came to his defence and echoed his comments. Thanks as well to MHK who was a eloquent as usual in outlining his position.

Snip the rest of an excellent post..

Dan welcome to the playground ;-)

You said that much more eloquently then I could so thanks for the input.. As your post pointed out, I think all too many people get caught up in the gear configuration issue. I think initially when DIR burst onto the scene most assumed that it was all about gear, and for better or worse the initial association was made and we're still working hard to overcome that impression.. What I try to tell the students is that the gear is a tool.. Much like a skilled carpenter who could build you a house with less then perfect tools, he would get the job done because he has teh skill. Whereas if you took a guy like me who has no carpentery skills and handed me the greatest set of tools in the world I still couldn't build you a house.. It's the skill that is the key, not necessarily the tool..

Thanks for jumping and hopefully you'll hang around.. See you soon my friend..

Later

 

[Big-t-2538]

MHK once bubbled...

Whereas if you took a guy like me who has no carpentery skills and handed me the greatest set of tools in the world I still couldn't build you a house..

Sorry I can't resist.....

When your done with those tools, ship them to Dayton for me....I'm in need of some new toys...Thanks

And Dan....welcome, and a great first post!!

 

[Aquamaniac]

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...
So what y'all are saying is that if you're new to this community, you'd better go searching thru thousands of old postings and make sure what you want to say hasn't been covered before ... otherwise, shut up and dive ...

My, my ... what a friendly bunch ... :wacko:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Nope, not all.
I think if your new to the "community" you should ask questions, ask HEAPS, then form your own opinion.
Very Very few people have been shot down for asking questions on this forum, actually its quite the opposite, take a look at the quality of responses in this thread (barring mine )
However............A few have been shot down for posting an opinion based on untruths ans rumors.

All that being said, I DO think a little research can go a loooong way.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I think if your new to the "community" you should ask questions, ask HEAPS, then form your own opinion.

I will only point out that I started and ended my initial post in this thread with questions ... neither of which actually got addressed. I think some of y'all got a bit carried away and based your responses not on what I said, but on discussions you've been involved with long before I ever heard of this community. You object to the concerns, comments, and fears expressed by those outside of the DIR community. But think of the role you play in creating the very thing to which you object.

An example is the difference between the original post regarding the inadequate dive gear and the explanation offered by Mr. McKay. Apparently there really wasn't anything wrong with the gear other than the fact that it didn't fit correctly, or wasn't the correct choice of gear for technical diving ... therefore it wasn't suitable for the objectives of the course. Does this really make the gear "crap"? Or does it really only point out that the purchaser didn't adequately consider his diving objectives before he purchased it?

For example, Mr. McKay's explanation about drysuit and undergarment restrictions makes perfect sense to me ... I got similar information from several LDS employees while shopping for gear ... including the one who measured me for my suit and undergarment. It was also covered in my OW class ... the place where you're supposed to ask lots of questions before forming an opinion. So does an uninformed purchase really make the product "crap"? And what impression does saying so make to the reader? I think that's something those of you posting reviews about DIR-F classes need to think about.

See ... that's what I was trying to say in my first post. Were the objections of the dive shop owner a matter of politics or economics? Is she objecting to the fact that you chose to take the course ... or is she objecting to having you come out of the class representing her products as "crap"? If she's got the only shop in town, it isn't difficult for anyone reading your reviews to figure out who's business you're talking about, and to form negative opinions about her business.

Now it's obvious that this wasn't what the instructor said at all ... but based on the original post, that's how it came across.

Yes, I understand you when you say take the course, then you'll know better. But you know what? The vast majority of divers reading this and other Internet forums will never take a GUE course. But they WILL form their opinions of the course based on what you say, and how you present your reviews. You can find an outsider's stereotypes of DIR objectionable ... but think about the role those of you who have taken the course play in creating those stereotypes.

Mr. McKay made a point that the course is about skill, attitude, and honesty. That's totally in line with the qualities I find most admirable about my diving friends who've been through the program. But I think the diving community would be better served if it's adherents would consider the importance of those skills above the surface, as well as below.

The perception is as important as the reality ... on the Internet, it's even more so.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

MHK once bubbled...

I think all too many people get caught up in the gear configuration issue. I think initially when DIR burst onto the scene most assumed that it was all about gear, and for better or worse the initial association was made and we're still working hard to overcome that impression..

I completely agree. A big part of the reason I'm continuing this conversation is to explore this aspect of the DIR experience, from the prespective of an "outsider".

I too think too many people get caught up in the gear configuration issue. I've seen (and experienced) DIR adherents involved in sometimes vehement discussions about it on the beach. Had a fellow once point to my rig and casually tell my wife that I was "an accident waiting to happen" ... this based totally on a momentary glance at my gear. So, while I can agree that it's not about gear, that is not the message that folks like this carry to non-DIR divers. Quite the opposite, in fact.

My point is that the stereotypes are there for a reason ... it didn't simply happen. That reason is only partly due to the "ignorance" of folks like myself who haven't been through the training. The other part is how the DIR diver presents himself to the public. There's a tendency to evangelize, rather than representing the goals of the program respectfully to the outside community.

That is one reason why the posts by yourself, Dan McKay, and others in discussions like this one are so important.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[WJL]

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...


I will only point out that I started and ended my initial post in this thread with questions ... neither of which actually got addressed. I think some of y'all got a bit carried away and based your responses not on what I said, but on discussions you've been involved with long before I ever heard of this community....

Actually Bob, this what you said in your first post:

...Also, it's a bit disingenuous to say that DIR-F isn't about selling gear ... specific gear is an integral part of the program. You cannot pass the course without it. So of course it is about selling gear. I know many DIR-trained divers ... and they have all purchased several thousand dollars of gear to pursue that type of diving. Amazingly similar gear, in fact. I doubt they would have done so without the "salesmanship" that comes with the course.

DIR-F is a great program ... I wish I could afford it. But if it's not about selling gear, why would you be contemplating selling off your gear on eBay and buying all that new stuff?

You started off by asserting that the purpose of the class is to sell gear. The only "question" you asked was why Scott was thinking about buying new gear. Your later points in this thread were based on similar assertions that GUE set up the Fundamentals class to push Halcyon gear. I think those issues have been adequately addressed.

Now you have resorted to chastising Scott for his choice of language in his report on what you concede is no more than a minor part of the class. How about giving it a rest? I'm beginning to think that you're just the type of guy who has to have the last word, no matter what.

 

[ABQdiver]

Dan MacKay once bubbled...
snip...
Believe me I feel for Scott who discovered that his brand new dry suit/under wear combination was less than optimal for the purpose that it was indended.

Now why would this matter? Well you may have gathered that we promote safety as a matter of course and anything that impinges on this is a very serious violation. Lets look at the dry suit issue from the perspective of safety.

So Scott, what was actually "wrong" with the drysuit you were diving? To tight?

Just tell me to mind my own business if you want, but I'm really curious.