DIR-F Report - Sault Ste. Marie CANADA

[JeffG]

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...
Oh ... and JeffG ...

Can you explain what is this "conspiracy theory" you keep tossing about? I'm talking about a business arrangement ... not anything to do with conspiracies.

Would you mind telling me what you're talking about? I'm unfamiliar with the term.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

It is your insistence that the DIRF class is there to sell gear. You seem to want to praise the course, and then give it a backhand slap by saying it is there to sell gear.

There is No business arrangement, other than the one you want to see.

Did you ever see the movie "The Conspiracy Theory"?

 

[MHK]

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...
Where to start ...


I'll bet I could find other financial connections as well (wanna bet Andrew G owns a piece of Halcyon?) ... either way, I stand by what I said.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I'll take that bet at any amount of money.. Andrew has no ownership interest in Halcyon whatsoever..

Also, as to your comments that we are involved in some gear conspiracy, please explain to me how I can make the money since I'm not. I've got a class next week on Catalina. The class is sold out so please explain to me before next week how I can make the money off of gear sales.. I don't own a shop, I am not a dealer and I couldn't sell them gear even if they begged me to do it, so rather then you cite imagined conspiracies please provide details..

Also, as to your NAUI rep, Peter is also a OMS rep, a Moby's rep and a few other manufacturer's so you may want to cite someone else as an example..

Later

 

[Big-t-2538]

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...


Scuba Scott said the instructor wasn't trying to sell gear ... or bash certain companies. He went on to say that the instructor SHOWED why certain gear was crap ... if that isn't bashing, what would you call it? And if requiring students to own certain types of gear isn't trying to sell gear, what is it?

It is you driving that porsche around a race track....and me hauling around 20 bags of concrete in my pick-up truck....one does not work well for the other situation.....will they both do the other...yes...is it effective...no.

I have a great many dive buddies who are DIR trained. To a person they are all excellent divers. Not only do they have great skills, but they have great attitudes about what it takes to be a good dive buddy. I appreciate that about the program.

The purpose of DIR-F is to introduce you to the fundamentals of technical diving, and to provide you with some of the skills required to do it safely

to me this was the heart of the course and the most important thing that they drove home on every dive in every situation

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Look ... I think some of y'all have taken my comments waaay out of context. I don't see myself as a DIR-basher, nor was that my intention.

I entered this discussion to talk about two things in the original post ...

- that the instructor wasn't trying to promote gear and/or bash other companies gear
- that it's sad to see politics in diving

As to the first, I cannot see the course as one that doesn't promote gear and/or bash other companies gear ... promoting a specific gear setup is fundamental to the course. In order to do that, it's necessary to "bash" gear which doesn't meet the criteria. Sorry, that's not to insult DIR .... but simply to point out one aspect of their business model.

As to the latter ... I was simply pointing out that the thing Scuba Scott was using as an example of "politics" was in reality an issue of economics ... and that both DIR and non-DIR classes are driven by economics, not politics.

Finally, I wished to point out that while the DIR-F course has a lot to offer, it's not the only way to acquire those skills. Yes, the person I used in my example also represents gear manufacturers. But he also doesn't go around telling people that his activities have nothing to do with gear sales ... nor have I ever known him to call someone else's product "crap".

It is not, and never will be, my intention to bash DIR divers ... I know, dive with, and like too many DIR-trained divers to know better. It is my contention, however, that DIR-F is not a panacea for good divers. I'm certain it's a great course ... and I'm equally certain that it's not for everyone who wants to be a good diver. I don't believe that saying so is in any way a negative thing ... but rather simply an acknowledgement that there are other ways to acquire those skills.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[JeffG]

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...
Look ... I think some of y'all have taken my comments waaay out of context. I don't see myself as a DIR-basher, nor was that my intention.

No...Could never Happen...Not on the Internet....

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...

I entered this discussion to talk about two things in the original post ...

- that the instructor wasn't trying to promote gear and/or bash other companies gear
- that it's sad to see politics in diving

As to the first, I cannot see the course as one that doesn't promote gear and/or bash other companies gear ... promoting a specific gear setup is fundamental to the course. In order to do that, it's necessary to "bash" gear which doesn't meet the criteria. Sorry, that's not to insult DIR .... but simply to point out one aspect of their business model.
<snipped the rest>

The "complaints/issues" is the business model part of your disscussion. I just do not see it/agree with it.... I could configure myself with a FredT BP/ OMS non Bungied Wing/Dive Rite Light and have a fully DIR rig without one piece of Halycon gear.

DIR = GUE = Halycon is NOT True. Many divers on the WKPP dive DIR and have never taken a GUE course.

Jeff

 

[WJL]

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...
Look ... I think some of y'all have taken my comments waaay out of context. I don't see myself as a DIR-basher, nor was that my intention.
....
... promoting a specific gear setup is fundamental to the course. In order to do that, it's necessary to "bash" gear which doesn't meet the criteria. Sorry, that's not to insult DIR .... but simply to point out one aspect of their business model.

Bob, why is this so hard for you to understand? The GUE Fundamentals class was not set up as a way to promote sales of Halcyon gear. Not one item of the required gear must be purchased from Halcyon. Halcyon does not even make fins, drysuits, wetsuits, regulators, bands, underwear, depth gauges, etc. although the good and bad features of the different models are discussed in the class. Of the required gear, Halcyon sells backplates, wings, lights, spools and bags. Similar gear from Halcyon competitors is perfectly acceptable for the class. So how does this fit into any "business model" to promote Halcyon sales? Could it be that your fixation on a hidden agenda is mistaken? Could it be that the point of the class is to teach good diving and not shill Halcyon gear as you continue to insist?

Finally, I wished to point out that while the DIR-F course has a lot to offer, it's not the only way to acquire those skills. Yes, the person I used in my example also represents gear manufacturers. But he also doesn't go around telling people that his activities have nothing to do with gear sales ... nor have I ever known him to call someone else's product "crap".

There is no question that there are many other ways to acquire the skills taught in a Fundamentals class. That does not mean that the point of the class is to sell gear. As far as the "crap" comment, that came from Scot, not the GUE instructor, as Scot himself made clear above.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bill ...

To answer your question, yes it is possible that I'm wrong. I don't kid myself into thinking I have all the answers ... but I do feel it's perfectly OK to express and discuss my opinion (even it it is in error). How else to give someone more knowledgeable the opportunity to correct me?

Now, to respond to something else ... I never said "Halcyon" equipment ... I said "gear". Others brought up the Halcyon connection. My only remark regarding Halcyon specifically was to point out that the President of GUE and the CEO of Halcyon are the same person. Do you think it's in his best interest to promote one company by using his position on the other? Me too ... I can't imagine a successful businessman who wouldn't. I'll say it again ... that's NOT meant as an insult, merely an observation. I never said there was anything wrong with it. I simply used it as an example of why I believe the issue is more about economics than politics.

Finally, the "crap" comment struck a nerve because I've heard it all before ... and from people who are directly involved in teaching DIR-F. I know that there are DIR instructors who use that term to describe non-DIR gear ... just as there are instructors who use the term "stroke" to refer to their view of non-DIR trained divers. Where do you think that particular term came from? And what do you think George Irvine meant when he coined it?

Yes, I might be wrong ... both about the gear and about the terminology. But if I am, how do you explain the predominance of one particular setup amongst DIR-trained divers (about 95% of those I know use virtually identical Halcyon rigs) ... and how do you explain the use of the same less-than-complimentary terms coming from so many geographically separated DIR-trained divers? Logically, it would be reasonable to assume that it's based on how the program is promoted.

I'm really not trying to bash DIR ... but I do think these are legitimate questions that deserve a well-reasoned answer. Having someone tell me I'm "farting in the wind" doesn't do that ... but it's fairly typical of the kind of responses I've gotten in the past when I asked those questions. As there are DIR instructors on here, I'm still holding out for something a bit more reasoned to explain it.

Feel free to correct me ... but please use reason, not slogans and insults.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MHK]

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...
Bill ...

. As there are DIR instructors on here, I'm still holding out for something a bit more reasoned to explain it.

Feel free to correct me ... but please use reason, not slogans and insults.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob,

I'm not exactly sure what you want reasoned, but let me see if I can try..

We go out of our way in the class to NOT bash any manufacturer or agency. However, we do compare and contrast various gear and various agencies. When I draw a distinction between what I believe is more favorable as contrasted against something else, can someone take that away as "bashing"?? I guess they could, but there isn't much that can be done about that. I am being paid by my students for my recommendations, and I also feel strongly that you can't just say manufacturer XYZ is better, you must give your students the reasons why.. And in order to answer the why, it is incumbent on my to compare and contrast and at the end of the day there is something I don't like about this piece of gear or I would be recommending it.. Using the easiet example for purposes of illustration, let's take a look at a set of bondage wings.. In my view the restrictive bands constitute an unnecessary hazard if your wing get's punctured. I don't tell my students that "bondage wings suck" and then leave it at that.. I simply go into the reasons in order to answer the WHY.. In order to answer the why, you have to point out failure points, if some want to call tha bashing, then what can I do about it???

As for why most of our students recommend and use the Halcyon BP & wing configuration, it's possibly has to do with the fact that until very recently most manufacturer's marketed BP & wings to the technical dive market and were very slow to recognize that the benefits associated with a BP & wing set up worked equally as well in the recreational world as well. Halcyon reconginzed that concept early, they promoted it and as a result most other's are playing catch-up.. Furthermore, I think it's fair to disclose that most of us that use the Halcyon product are very satisfied that it is a higher quality product and it's design is meant to compliment our style of diving, not work against it..

I'm happy to address any of your other concerns if you can list them in a cogent fashion..

Later

 

[detroit diver]

Bob,

You've been told by a GUE instructor (MHK) that there is no renumeration for suggesting TYPES of gear, and that there is no financial gain for the instructor AT ALL.

You just don't want to listen to it. Or accept that it's the truth. I haven't seen you accept MHK's bet on AG owning a piece of Halcyon either-and that was one of YOUR points.

If I remember the story correctly, GI coined the term "stroke" after people kept trying to get close to him with stories of how good a diver that they were, and turned out to be total garbage, not only in the water, but in how they grasped the concept of diving. IE, they were trying to "stroke" him. If anyone has a different version of this, please correct me.

This class doesn't sell equipment. You just don't want to accept this.

The instructors don't make any money doing this. You don't want to accept this either.

You've met people who use words that insult you and that turns you off to DIR. That paints the whole picture for you. But the stories from everyone that took the class that state the quality of the class seem to just blow in the wind with you.

What you are seeing with equipment and the Halcyon name emblazoned upon it is the user's confidence in quality. If you were to look at my rig, the Halcyon name stands out on my wing, but that is the ONLY piece from Halcyon that I own. You can't tell a Halcon BP from anyone else's BP, nor can you tell the webbing or hardware. Halcyon does a great job of marketing their wings with their logo, and it stands out in your mind that all we dive is Halcyon product.

Some things are not what they seem.

 

[Aquamaniac]

If you dont like it, dont do it, its that simple.
Im sure no-one will lose any sleep over it.

Shut up and dive


Dave