DIR-F Changes
- Thread starter GearHead
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The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
Computers are here to stay. They will only get more dependable and usable. I think trying to use a hammer to put in a scew is just plain wrong. Better to use it for what it was designed for.
That being said... no human brain can accomplish the sampling rate or precision of computation of N2 loading in several tissue compartments at the same time. But, no computer can make the value judgements that keep diving safe either. Using both to accomplish your dive only makes sense.
That being said... no human brain can accomplish the sampling rate or precision of computation of N2 loading in several tissue compartments at the same time. But, no computer can make the value judgements that keep diving safe either. Using both to accomplish your dive only makes sense.
I'm not sure what good all that precession does when the model is just a guestimate at best. In fact given that we know that bubble mechanics and many other things come into play that the computers really aren't taking into account I'm sure all that sampling speed and precission is just like a dog chasing his tail.
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
and I am glad it's my computer chasing it's tail and not me! I will save my limited cognitive abilities for making real decisions, and not for following some tired algorithms.
GUE DIR Fundamentals is about training divers in the Fundamental skills of Diving.
To safely dive in 20-40 feet of water requires pretty minimal understanding of deco theory.
Proper ascents are discussed and practiced including developing profiency in performing stops at 30, 20 and 10 feet.
The GUE Recreational deep diving course aka Rec Triox does go into considerable detail regarding deco theory.
DIRF is a prereq to Rec Triox.
Rec Triox is not a prereq to Tech 1.
Personally I do all my diving with a Uwatec Bottom Timer on my right wrist, my backup gauge on my buddy's wrist (their primary) and my brain on.
Marc Hall
svcfish@yahoo.com
To safely dive in 20-40 feet of water requires pretty minimal understanding of deco theory.
Proper ascents are discussed and practiced including developing profiency in performing stops at 30, 20 and 10 feet.
The GUE Recreational deep diving course aka Rec Triox does go into considerable detail regarding deco theory.
DIRF is a prereq to Rec Triox.
Rec Triox is not a prereq to Tech 1.
Personally I do all my diving with a Uwatec Bottom Timer on my right wrist, my backup gauge on my buddy's wrist (their primary) and my brain on.
Marc Hall
svcfish@yahoo.com
There has been some cross-posting between this list and the Quest list. The messages there prompted me to reply.
First, GUE and DIR support using the computer between your ears at all times. A bottom timer is used during the dives itself, although a PDA or personal computer can be used for dive planning prior to the dive. The main reason for this is so that you do plan and think about your dive, rather than diving whatever profile your dive computer allows.
Bubble mechanics and decompression theory are still not well understood. Every year more is learned. Many of the dive tables and dive computers available now do not reflect current theory. For leading edge information, watch the WKPP.
Second, the comment made in the DIR-Fundamentals course was made in the context of a discussion between the instructor for the course and her students. Outside of the context of the discussion, the meaning is different. The instructor posted to Quest to that effect. Everyone here is getting carried away with something that simply was taken out of context.
The DIR-Fundamentals bar is still high, perhaps higher than ever due to the changes effective June 1. The course is now a certification course (which may earn the participant a certification card), as opposed to a seminar earning a certificate of completion.
I hope this helps clarify things.
Jan Sitchin
PADI/NAUI/ and GUE (DIR Fundamentals) Instructor
First, GUE and DIR support using the computer between your ears at all times. A bottom timer is used during the dives itself, although a PDA or personal computer can be used for dive planning prior to the dive. The main reason for this is so that you do plan and think about your dive, rather than diving whatever profile your dive computer allows.
Bubble mechanics and decompression theory are still not well understood. Every year more is learned. Many of the dive tables and dive computers available now do not reflect current theory. For leading edge information, watch the WKPP.
Second, the comment made in the DIR-Fundamentals course was made in the context of a discussion between the instructor for the course and her students. Outside of the context of the discussion, the meaning is different. The instructor posted to Quest to that effect. Everyone here is getting carried away with something that simply was taken out of context.
The DIR-Fundamentals bar is still high, perhaps higher than ever due to the changes effective June 1. The course is now a certification course (which may earn the participant a certification card), as opposed to a seminar earning a certificate of completion.
I hope this helps clarify things.
Jan Sitchin
PADI/NAUI/ and GUE (DIR Fundamentals) Instructor
As an OW diver fresh out of training I was taught to use the tables to plan square profile dives. I was also taught that doing a multi-level profile could extend my bottom time, but I was NOT taught how to properly plan those dives.
I was told by the owner of the LDS that a computer can calculate multi-level profiles on the fly and extend my bottom time since I didn't have the tools to plan them on paper. One could argue that it's a great way to sell a new diver an expensive piece of equipment and that's probably a fair assessment, but the fact remains that it was the only tool available to me to gain the benefit of extended bottom time by doing a multi-level dive. I was going on a big diving trip and I bought a computer.
Now, 2 months after certification, I'm in Belize on a boat with a divemaster and I'm getting a dive briefing. He's telling us that we're going to be doing a multi-level dive, first we drop down to X for X minutes, then we'll poke our way up to X for a little while, etc. He asks if anyone has a computer. My buddy and I do and say so and he says, OK, watch your computer and make sure you don't see anything less that 5-7 minutes of NDL on it, to everyone else he says don't go deeper than me. More or less riding his computer.
Now, I can watch my own NDL on my computer and make sure I don't overstay my allowed bottom time. I can't plan the multi-level dive because I don't have the tools, physical (wheel) or mental (brain). The people without a computer are following the DM on faith that he's not exceeding his computer's NDL and that the profile that they are following is a safe one.
My questions are this: Who's doing a safer dive? Me and my buddy on our computers or the computerless divers? What can I do, or other divers in similar circumstances do, without a computer, to plan and excute a plan like that one?
Rachel
I was told by the owner of the LDS that a computer can calculate multi-level profiles on the fly and extend my bottom time since I didn't have the tools to plan them on paper. One could argue that it's a great way to sell a new diver an expensive piece of equipment and that's probably a fair assessment, but the fact remains that it was the only tool available to me to gain the benefit of extended bottom time by doing a multi-level dive. I was going on a big diving trip and I bought a computer.
Now, 2 months after certification, I'm in Belize on a boat with a divemaster and I'm getting a dive briefing. He's telling us that we're going to be doing a multi-level dive, first we drop down to X for X minutes, then we'll poke our way up to X for a little while, etc. He asks if anyone has a computer. My buddy and I do and say so and he says, OK, watch your computer and make sure you don't see anything less that 5-7 minutes of NDL on it, to everyone else he says don't go deeper than me. More or less riding his computer.
Now, I can watch my own NDL on my computer and make sure I don't overstay my allowed bottom time. I can't plan the multi-level dive because I don't have the tools, physical (wheel) or mental (brain). The people without a computer are following the DM on faith that he's not exceeding his computer's NDL and that the profile that they are following is a safe one.
My questions are this: Who's doing a safer dive? Me and my buddy on our computers or the computerless divers? What can I do, or other divers in similar circumstances do, without a computer, to plan and excute a plan like that one?
Rachel
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
DON'T DO THE DIVE!!!
I call them "Trust Me" dives... where the DM, instructor or other bozo tells you that it's "OK" because -they- know what they are doing. TRUST NO ONE!!! They obviously don't know enough to not let you do a "Trust Me" dive, so don't trust them at all!!!
Get the training... do the planning and THEN and ONLY THEN should you attempt that (or any) dive. If you can't plan it, don't dive it! Just like that neat looking worm on the bottom... if you can't ID it LEAVE IT ALONE! It might be nothing, but it might be a bristle worm and kill you.
It really doesn't matter whether you use a computer or not. If you let others make your decisions for you, then you are putting yourself in perilous situations. Computers/SPGs/Bottom timers are ONLY instruments... use them and trust them at your discretion. But YOU need to be the one making ALL of the decisions based on the input you get. It's your dive, and YOUR life... choose your options wisely!
I just finished my AOW, I still don't know how to use the wheel. I still don't know how to plan multi-level dives on paper. I'm not unique in that respect. The plan I gave in the above example isn't unique. This is a typical Caribbean (and probably elsewhere) kind of dive. Tons of people do that dive, in some form or another, every day in dive destinations around the world.
Short of signing up for the PADI Multi-level Diver Specialty, where is a diver to get the information to avoid the "trust me" dives? Does DIR-F cover it? Do other agencies cover it in their advanced certificates?
There are a whole bunch of people telling me to toss the computer but no one is giving me a way to fill in the knowledge gaps so that plan is feasible!
Help me find a way to fill in the gaps and get the deco theory that's so critical to make that move and I'll consider it. In the meantime, my computer is the one thing that's keeping the dive a "trust something besides the DM" dive.
Rachel
Short of signing up for the PADI Multi-level Diver Specialty, where is a diver to get the information to avoid the "trust me" dives? Does DIR-F cover it? Do other agencies cover it in their advanced certificates?
There are a whole bunch of people telling me to toss the computer but no one is giving me a way to fill in the knowledge gaps so that plan is feasible!
Help me find a way to fill in the gaps and get the deco theory that's so critical to make that move and I'll consider it. In the meantime, my computer is the one thing that's keeping the dive a "trust something besides the DM" dive.
Rachel
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
and I personally do not have a problem with your computer or you planning multi-level dives on your computer. Just keep your mind open for scenarios that just "don't look right". A computer is just a tool, just like software planners, tables or wheels. The important thing is that you should understand how it comes up with it;s solutions and dive accordingly. Keeping 5-7 minutes of NDL is a tad simplistic, but it will probably work for most of the diving you are likely to do. I would definitely trust your dive computer over a DM ANYDAY!! But... if you can't plan it; DON'T DIVE IT.
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