DIR controversy?

[grazie42]

Originally Posted by Halthron
You said a "brand new diver", which is what I responded to. A brand new diver is someone who is a diver (by definition having passed OW) but is very new, few or no non-checkout dives. If you meant a "soon to be" diver, then you're right, they currently don't offer an OW course. But that isn't what you said.

It doesen´t matter how you define it. Your "brand new diver" +dir-f does not = "brand new diver"!

Whoever you have "pre dir-f" you have to assume that dir-f gives SOME additional benefit (or at least a difference). Hence the comparrison is unfair. Of course...if you don´t think dir-f has any positive impact...then I´ll concede your point (having never taken it myself) but that would also render the whole argument moot...

I can´t believe you don´t see the logical fallacy...

Posted by BarryNL
But, throw in "options" like integrated weights, weight harnesses, tank mounted weight systems, BCD integrated regulators, Mares HUB style scariness, etc. and things get confusing fast in an OOA situation.

It doesen´t matter if your buddy brought the kitchen sink with him!
If you decide to dive with someone, then according to "the system" (let´s say PADI), you are supposed to do a "buddy-check". If you don´t know or can´t handle your buddys equipment afterwards then you haven´t done it correctly. If you do, then OOA, is not a problem regardless of whether you are diving with a "christmas tree masquerading as a diver" or not.

I won´t pretend to endorse such configs but if you choose to accept the buddy responsibility for such a diver, then the problems that config causes is as much yours as his (according to the system).

Using examples where divers "outside a system" have problems and blaming the system is like blaming gue (dir, whatever) for the mistakes of those who "say they are dir, but aren´t"...

 

[Thalassamania]

Which is why, IMO, everyone needs to consider (and I hope agree to) giving up the primary for an OOA emergency.

Many years ago (so long that this tale involves a Tekna regulator I was given to test) I wound up with a Tekna regulator on a 48” hose. It was sent to me that way, I don’t really remember why. I dove it in the pool and the ocean, wrote my report and tossed in the back of the dive locker.

Around the same time we were discussing making an auxillary second stage mandatory for instructor while training. So I went looking for a second stage to play with and grabbed the Tekna. I found that I preferred it to any of the other auxiliary second stage configurations because, as a side breather it was not “handed,” and the only other side breather around then (and lets not get into the tilt valves) was the Poseidon that needed a “non-standard” intermediate pressure. Anyway, on that 48” hose the Tekna was the perfect “Instructor’s Auxiliary.” The hose placed it right into my fully extended left arm, the side breather meant that it was easy to get to the student, and the purge button on the end meant that it could be delivered to a student in need ready to go.

So I dove the Tekna for a while and eventually wound up replacing it with an Oceanic Omega. When I decided to replace the 48” hose, I could not find one, but there were two 60” hoses in the locker that were spares for our fly-away surface supply system. So, since we only needed one spare, of course I scraged it. I tried using the Oceanic as a primary but needed to do something with the hose. Around the neck just seemed to happen naturally. So I dove like that for a few years.

Now it’s the early 1980s, all our instructors are using Teknas, Oceanics or Poseidons on 48 inch hoses, carried in their left hand, during training. But we’re starting to see a lot of other kinds of gear, AIR-11s, Air Sources, Pony’s etc. And there’s no standardization in technique. It makes no sense. We have a series of meetings and come the conclusion that the only way in which procedures can be standardized, and still permit our divers to work with outside divers, is to give up the primary and be responsible, on an individual basis for obtaining and using your backup of choice.

So for years now I’ve been diving my primary (now a Mares Abyss with a Ruby seat) on a 60” hose and an Omega Octo on the end of one of those adaptors that lets you put a regulator on the end of your BC Inflator. On every dive the first thing I do is make sure that the Omega is working right, and so far it always has been.

 

[Jasonmh]

The problem is that the representatives of DIR (often, I will grant you self-appointed) are so smugly self-righteous...

And we also have the problem on the other side that the self-appointed anti-dir reps often have no actual understanding of DIR, other than internet rumor, and have no trouble also appearing self-righteous. But that does not keep them from making stuff up

I have always dove black gear. ...But I’m thinking of changing this life long habit because I don’t want to be misidentified.

Technical divers have been using mostly black gear for a long time (long before GUE existed), so what? This is not any exclusive realm of DIR so I am not sure why you are worried about being misidentified.

It is a system that seems to me (as a sympathetic outsider) to be a compote of great techniques, folk wisdom, urban myth and cultural touchstones that are the diving equivalent of the Abominations of Leviticus. But this is no different from other systems (including the one that I subscribe to) that are put together by a small insular group

Not sure where the urban myth and cultural part fit in.

From what I can determine, the DIR system seems to be a pretty good one, in any case vastly better than the dominant form represented by the Tweedledee-Teedledumber act of the RecCom where the monotony of reduction to the least common denominator has made differences between the agencies all but irrelevant

Wow.

People are, of course, free to go to hell in the handbasket of their choosing, but the DIR seem to think that there are only two baskets in town, theirs and that of the RecCom.

Of course not, where did you come up with this one? Many in the DIR crowd, including it's founders, have training from mulitple agencies, including TDI, NSS-CSD, NACD, etc. Go look at the resumes of the instructors on the GUE site. You will see a diverse training background.

Of more concern to me is that DIR seems to push (at least is represented as advocating) the idea that one gear configuration optimally satisfies all needs. ...I use different wetsuits for different temperature regimes.

Really. Is it your opinion that DIR does not allow for proper exposure protection? That would be just silly. And it is also one more way these incorrect rumors start.

You’ve got that right, and frankly I resent those outbursts setting the tone for the entire discussion, which if conducted in an inclusive way could make diving better for all

Again, Wow...
You come on here bashing:
"the DIR system seems to be a pretty good one, in any case vastly better than the dominant form represented by the Tweedledee-Teedledumber act of the RecCom"
Calling the recreational dive community a tweedle-dumb act... then say that you don't like outbursts and how they set a negative tone?
Why don't you share with everyone where you are coming from, and what training you do support. Then the rec divers on here can argue with you and give DIR a break for a few minutes

 

[TSandM]

I think there ought to be a prerequisite number of dives for DIR-F, but there isn't. I had two classmates -- one with 8 dives and one with 16. Bob's right, the class is very difficult to teach with divers that inexperienced in it.

I'm 70 dives past DIR-F, and I think I'm going to pass now.

Can lights in low viz are superb communication devices (as well as great illumination). Can lights in good viz bring out the colors. Can lights are great toys.

Nobody has to be DIR who doesn't want to be. I want to be. My buddies want to be. We go quietly off in a corner in our black suits (mine's not, actually) and shove our regulators at each other and shoot bags. We don't bother anybody.

 

[*Floater*]

Of more concern to me is that DIR seems to push (at least is represented as advocating) the idea that one gear configuration optimally satisfies all needs. I use different dry suits for different needs (e.g., polluted water, shore entry, arctic diving). I use different wetsuits for different temperature regimes. I have more than a half dozen pair of fins, each pair for its own purpose. The fin that I’d wear in a turbid, swiftly moving river is very different than that which I’d use over a silty bottom in stagnant water. I use a different fin for a shore entry on a steep beach than I use on a shallowly sloping beach with a wider, but lower surf zone. The same can be said of almost every piece of gear, down to my mouthpiece. And I don’t understand the fascination with canister lights. I happen to think that canister lights are great, but only when it’s dark.

DIR divers are supposed to take what you need for their dives. Thick wetsuits or dive skins are preferred for warm water, and trilam drysuits are preferred for colder temperatures. If you want to use a thick wetsuit or a neoprene drysuit then that's fine as far as I know - it's just that most DIR divers seem to think those are suboptimal and hence don't recommend them. Also can lights are good for signaling, spotting a buddy or getting a buddy's attention.

I'm curious about which fins you use for the different types of diving and why?

 

[*Floater*]

Also, I don't think DIR claims that one gear config is optimal for everything, rather they want one gear config that works well for everything with minimal additions and changes to procedures as you progress into more advanced diving. I think you could well argue (at least for a sake of an example) that an air2 and a hoseless SPG is optimal for open water rec diving, but it won't work when you go more advanced, and then you'd have to learn different gas sharing procedures for example. DIR tries to avoid that type of thing as much as possible.

 

[TheRedHead]

Again, there are a few of these people who want to take their training/philosophy to Cozumel with them and impose it on everyone around them. We're gearing up getting ready for a 60' dive in clear open water with hardly a current and 800' feet from shore and they smerk under their breath about our split fins. Give me a break.

I've dived Cozumel 8 times and never seen a DIR diver. Who did you dive with? I'd love to dive with some. I've never been on a boat in Cozumel with another diver in a BP/w. I'm not GUE-trained, BTW. Sometimes, I even dive in split fins.

 

[El Orans]

Sometimes, I even dive in split fins.

OMG, you're gonna die! :11:

 

[Charlie99]

The whole controversy revolves around a caricature of DIR. It has little to do with reality and has more to do with an image that is perpetuated online through Internet forums and email lists.

Which is why the "DIR controversy" only exists in cyberspace.

 

[Cacia]

We go quietly off in a corner in our black suits (mine's not, actually) and shove our regulators at each other and shoot bags. We don't bother anybody.

You are getting funnier by the day....this is the stuff that is fun to read!....and a good point.

Again, Wow...
You come on here bashing:
"the DIR system seems to be a pretty good one, in any case vastly better than the dominant form represented by the Tweedledee-Teedledumber act of the RecCom

don't take it so personally, he is just trying to make the subject amusing. Remember the huge different backgrounds people come from. I wish we could all drop the word "bashing" because it is over-dramatic. We are getting some real creative tongue in cheek writing around here, of late and it is satiracle, smart "column worthy" reading. Gotta love a good chuckle. make a chuckle back...Thalassamania can take it, would probably even enjoy it. he has great stories about hanging with astronauts, where he makes himself the joke....get to know him, he is a riot.