DIR controversy?

[Halthron]

You and I are diving, you run out of air for whatever reason. What do you do? What do you expect me to do? What do I actually do? With a common system, this is understood even with a language barrier. As far as I'm aware, none of the regular agencies teach this kind of thing in recreational courses.

Are you serious? have you not taken a rec-course with a regular agency?
Triangle, octo, "throatslashing"-sign...do none of these ring a bell?

We may all have preconceptions about how well the avg "recdiver" will respond to these things but maybe those preconceptions need to be examined rather than the divers and the system that creates them...I don´t know...I haven´t been in that situation myself...I´ll go out on a limb and assume that you haven´t either...

If you haven't done it then I'm guessing I've done it more than you, all of mine are practices though in an effort to ingrane the reaction. My questions wanted answers, not critisism but if you've never placed yourself in the situation then you probably haven't thought about it. So,

You run out of air, what do you do? This is the only one I remember being taught in OW. You make the throat slashing sign.

What do I do? Depends on the agency. If the givee is OW PADI, chances are they start trying to remember where their octopus is. "Is this the jacket that has the little thingie that goes in the mouthpiece? Hmm, nope. Oh, I put it in the pocket. Wait, I wonder where it went. <Octo dangling behind diver, draging in the dirt>

What do you expect me to do? Again, depends on the agency. By the time you realize your buddy doesn't know where his oct is, you're getting ready to rip the primary from his mouth.

With everyone on the same page, everyone knows what will happen, even if they can't speak to each other. Buddy goes OOA, ,I unwrap the long-hose primary, hand it to my buddy (yes, there is a way to do it so it doesn't free-flow in the buddy's face) and reach for my octopus, conveniently bungee'd at the base of my neck.

Drills allow you to learn to react without stressing out, the actions become automatic. At this point, there is no stress for me to deal with someone out of air.

I've once been the recipient of a real out of air donation. It occured during a valve drill at 110 feet in the middle of a two knot current, the valve got stuck after being closed. Less than five seconds after signalling I was calmly fixing the problem. My buddy was prepared, the result of many drills, and I knew what my he was going to do.

Again, none of the regular agencies, that I know of, teach this type of thing in a regular rec course. The fact that you see so many dangling octos is proof of that.

 

[Wolverine]

Well, I have been a "tech" diver as well as a "rec" diver. I can understand why DIR appeals to some people, but I for one am of the opinion that you should equip with what best suits the situation rather than using one set for universal purpose. I would gladly take a 6ft hose around my neck if I am penetrating a wreck but would leave that behind on a reef where my maximum depth is 60ft, and tailor the equipment for photography. I would use a jetfin in confined spaces but take my Volos on open water anytime. At the end of the day, bring equipment that suits, not equipment that is designed for different purposes.

I got dissed once for using a normal hose on the octopus. "Airshare will be difficult" they said. I replied "If you need to airshare on a reef, you should be the one thinking about what you are doing." Barring any accidents of course.

In any case, nothing beats training and I do agree with Halthron that as long as you know your equipment well and understand what to do, there will be less accidents or problems. Its just that I don't think you need a long hose for that.


Dive safe and have fun.

 

[Marek K]

If the givee is OW PADI, chances are they start trying to remember where their octopus is. "Is this the jacket that has the little thingie that goes in the mouthpiece? Hmm, nope. Oh, I put it in the pocket. Wait, I wonder where it went. <Octo dangling behind diver, draging in the dirt>

Umm... OK, I'll let myself be dragged into this.

You honestly don't mean that as sarcastic criticism?

The fact that you see so many dangling octos is proof of that.

I don't see that. But I obviously don't dive where you dive.

Yes, that's my avatar -- short-hose, poodle-jacket, console-packin' rec diver.

But I don't touch the reef, nor does my stuff. And I practice OOA procedures with my buddies.

--Marek

 

[Halthron]

Umm... OK, I'll let myself be dragged into this.

You honestly don't mean that as sarcastic criticism?

I don't see that. But I obviously don't dive where you dive.

Yes, that's my avatar -- short-hose, poodle-jacket, console-packin' rec diver.

But I don't touch the reef, nor does my stuff. And I practice OOA procedures with my buddies.

--Marek

Nope, not sarcastic at all. I see it quite a bit.

I don't have a problem with short-hose using, jacket-wearing divers, none at all. IMO, it's all about skills, awareness and the desire to learn. I don't make anyone feel bad about their choice of equipment, unless they make snide remarks about mine. My opinion is that a person with few skills currently but a desire to learn is a future dependable buddy.

Anyone who trys to be aware of the reef and practices air sharing is someone I'll dive with, no matter what they're using.

 

[Halthron]

I would use a jetfin in confined spaces but take my Volos on open water anytime. At the end of the day, bring equipment that suits, not equipment that is designed for different purposes.

I prefer the long hose for all diving situations but I do bring two types of fins (splits and paddles) in case the type of dive I was planning changes. I like my splits for open water slight-current, staying-off-the-reef dives while the paddles are for anything dealing with current or where viz is important.

 

[grazie42]

Originally Posted by Halthron
If you haven't done it then I'm guessing I've done it more than you, all of mine are practices though in an effort to ingrane the reaction. My questions wanted answers, not critisism but if you've never placed yourself in the situation then you probably haven't thought about it. ...snip...

What I meant was that I haven&#180;t been OOA and had to ask a "typical recdiver" (whoever that is) for air. Until I do, I won&#180;t comment on the "typical divers" ability to respond...I practice OOA on every dive (wth regular buddies) but I don&#180;t see what that has to do with the discussion at hand.

You run out of air, what do you do? This is the only one I remember being taught in OW. You make the throat slashing sign.
What do I do? Depends on the agency. If the givee is OW PADI, chances are they start trying to remember where their octopus is...SNIP...

If PADI OW he&#180;s supposed to pull out his octo (or I will) and then I start breathing from it. If that happens or not depends on the divers involved.

If you get wet with a "buddy" without knowing where his octo is, then IMO that&#180;s YOUR fault. If you let your buddy drag YOUR octo thru the sand then, again, that is YOUR problem.

The system isn&#180;t to blame for the individuals incompetence. I know my OW instructor told me to practice everything I learned regularly, didn&#180;t yours? If you choose not to, then the blame is yours not the instructors or the agency...

You feel DIR is better than other systems but how many drills did you during your courses and how many afterwards? where did you gain proficiency in the drills? what stopped you from drilling with your octo after your ow course? certainly not your agency or your instructor..."only you can breath for you and only you can think for you"...some recognition of individual responsibility would be nice...

Is a DIR diver who doesen&#180;t follow "dir protocol" any better of? Differentiate between system and individual and we may have a productive discussion...

Again, none of the regular agencies, that I know of, teach this type of thing in a regular rec course. The fact that you see so many dangling octos is proof of that.

No it isn&#180;t...

 

[Halthron]

The system isn´t to blame for the individuals incompetence. I know my OW instructor told me to practice everything I learned regularly, didn´t yours? If you choose not to, then the blame is yours not the instructors or the agency...

Nope, didn't say a thing. The failing isn't all on the new diver, it's on the instructor and on the agency. The new diver is largely enthusiastic but clueless. If they aren't taught, they shouldn't be expected to know. And I don't consider a single deomonstration having been taught when there are so many things a new diver learns.

The fact that you see so many dangling octos is proof of that.

No it isn´t...

Yes, it is. When I went through OW, there was no lesson on "appropriate stowage" of octos and we all had them dangling throughout most of the dives.

You're drawing a lot more out of my posts than I'm putting into them. None of my buddies drag their octos through the sand or they don't remain my buddy. So no, it won't be my fault. I also talk to my buddy on dives and explain that in an OOA, the octo is his. I'm taking the reg that I know works.

 

[grazie42]

I&#180;m trying to show the inconsistencies in your reasoning...I&#180;m not upset or even anti-dir...

None of my buddies drag their octos through the sand or they don't remain my buddy. So no, it won't be my fault. I also talk to my buddy on dives and explain that in an OOA, the octo is his. I'm taking the reg that I know works.

What I meant was that, IMO, the one responsible for all those dangling octos you apparently see isn&#180;t whatever agency that taught them but the individual divers/or instructors who don&#180;t follow standards.

The failing isn't all on the new diver, it's on the instructor and on the agency. The new diver is largely enthusiastic but clueless. If they aren't taught, they shouldn't be expected to know. And I don't consider a single deomonstration having been taught when there are so many things a new diver learns.

I was taught that "danglies" were bad, I&#180;m sorry if you didn&#180;t. I agree that you can&#180;t be expected to know what you aren&#180;t taught...

Since you think that a new diver has to learn so many new things (I agree) how can you make the comparison between such a diver and a DIR-diver when you know that DIR (or gue) doesen&#180;t accept new divers? And then from that comparison, draw the conclusion that DIR is a better system?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Again, none of the regular agencies, that I know of, teach this type of thing in a regular rec course. The fact that you see so many dangling octos is proof of that.

I think this is an overstatement.

With the exception of differences imposed by a long hose, everything about OOA that is taught in DIR-F was also taught in my YMCA OW class ... including the instructor urging us to practice the skill to the point where we could do it without having to think about it. I have vivid memories of doing OOA drills with my newly-certified dive buddy on the upline at the Nakaya.

As a NAUI instructor, I can tell you that pretty much the same things are in the OW course materials. How well it gets taught varies with instructor. My students practice it during the certification dives, and are encouraged to continue practicing it after they're done with class. We also discuss the importance of being familiar with each other's gear before entering the water, and of not having danglies. So the stereotype you're presenting is really worse-case, rather than typical (at least, it is around here).

And I'm not unique. Most of the other shop instructors I see on week-ends out at the dive site are friends of mine ... people I dive with in my free time. We share tips and tricks. Danglies are pretty much a universal no-no. And I don't know a single instructor who doesn't encourage his students to practice OOA skills during safety stops. See, this isn't an agency issue ... my circle of instructor friends cover PADI, NAUI, SSI, and YMCA.

These agencies all recognize the importance of practicing skills, and if the instructor teaches diligently and by standards, these things are taught properly at the OW level.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Halthron]

Since you think that a new diver has to learn so many new things (I agree) how can you make the comparison between such a diver and a DIR-diver when you know that DIR (or gue) doesen´t accept new divers? And then from that comparison, draw the conclusion that DIR is a better system?

DIR isn't an agency so we'll focus on GUE, the most well known of the DIR advocating agencies. The thing about DIR is consistency. Two 100% DIR divers who've never met before should know 99% of what their new buddy has equiped, where it is and what to expect. There should be no suprises.

how can you make the comparison between such a diver and a DIR-diver when you know that DIR (or gue) doesen´t accept new divers?

A brand new diver (earlier this year GUE was considering offering an OW course but it hasn't gone truely public, if it ever will) can enroll in the DIR-F course. There is no dive requirement listed on the website other than holding an OW certification. Once that diver has passed DIR-F and has done 50 dives, they can take the Rec Tri-Ox course. Naturally, the other budding DIR agencies will have different models.