DIR compliancy questions.

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Nostromo

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Northern Minnesota
First, a little history. I got PADI certified about five years ago and have logged about ten dives between then and now. I enjoyed the few times I went out, but as much as I hate to say it, the guy I was diving with (a cousin of mine) was a "stroke" in every sense of the word. This winter I decided to get my poop in a group and come spring start actively diving. My girlfriend (not yet certified) is very interested in diving with me, and I have no doubt she will be a far better dive buddy than my afore mentioned cousin. I have tried to learn everything I could about the sport (mainly from lurking on this board) and have decided to "do it right" from the start. Which of course, leads to a few questions, which is why I'm here. Please forgive me if I ask something stupid, or has already been addressed, I've tried to find everything I can on these subjects, and still have a few questions. The first question is regarding GUE's open water class, specifically when it might be available. The first thing my GF asked me is why she should be required to certify in PADI-OW, only to be immediately retrained, and I really can't blame her. The other question concerns dry-suits. We are trying to get all our equipment together so we're ready as soon as the ice goes out (we live in Northern Minnesota) and I'd like to buy her some appropriate gear. We both have six percent body fat and would freeze in about sixty seconds flat in wet-suits... As far as I can tell, the DUI TLS-350 is the de-facto-standard of the DIR world, and due to my GF's proportions she'll most likely require a custom made one. My questions are as follows: What's the optimum DIR setup for a dry-suit? Specifically, what exactly is a "cave cut" and how does one order it, where do you put the vent to best augment DIR's trim ideals (upper arm or forearm) and are DUI's zip-in neck and wrist seals (or gloves) DIR compliant? The zip-in seals seem like a good idea, but I would imagine could be considered a serious failure point as well. This is obviously a person specific item, as well as being a substantial investment, so I'd like to get it right the first time around. Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks!
 
You'd be best off by contacting a local GUE instructor and asking questions of them. You can find a list of GUE instructors at www.gue.com. I think the closest instructor to you is Brandon Schwartz who lives in Michigan and is a member of this board (I think as BCS or Brando).

My only comment is that, while the TLS350 tends to be the 'standard' suit in DIR, it also rips extremely easily and (IMO) is not generally a great suit to have when dealing with wrecks or zebra mussels. Many will disagree with me, but I've seen more than one 6 inch gash on a TLS350.

As for the zip-seals, I think they are completely unnecessary plus add an additional failure point. The zip-drygloves shouldn't even be considered, as they don't provide the ability to keep an intact inner seal. If you get a cut in the glove, prepare to get cold.

There has been a bunch of debate recently about 'proper' positioning of the exhaust valve, but the final answer is on the upper shoulder.
 
Soggy:
....snip....


My only comment is that, while the TLS350 tends to be the 'standard' suit in DIR, it also rips extremely easily and (IMO) is not generally a great suit to have when dealing with wrecks or zebra mussels. Many will disagree with me, but I've seen more than one 6 inch gash on a TLS350.

I don't specifically have any experience with DUI trilam suits but I had a different trilam suit and it wasn't very tough either. I replaced it with *gasp* a 4mm compressed neoprene suit and and I've never been happier. It's got hundreds of dives on it, mostly climbing in and out of the water on Dutch dikes and rooting around in (blown up, rammed, ripped apart and rolled over the bottom) North Sea wrecks and an not a nick or tear in it anywhere. The shoes will wear out long before the suit is worn out. In contrast a buddy of mine had a "nice" trilam suit, slipped on a rock getting out of the water during our first time out and ripped a big hole in the side of the knee.

Personally, I think if you're going down 100 metres with a truck full of stage bottles, that the neoprene suit might become a problem (you could become too negative). But most of us don't do that kind of diving and for the 35-40 metre (wreck) dives we do, "tough" has more merit than adhering to the standard (imho).

DIR is great, Nostromo, but it's not (I think) the one-size-fits-all solution you may be lead to believe it is on the internet. Have you heard the term "Hogarthian", yet? Take a look at this site http://www.cavedivers.com.au/articles/hogarth.htm for an idea of some principles you can use in your thinking about gear. You can see it like this: DIR is a standard and Hogarthian is a set of principles. I don't see this as mutually exclusive but as complimentary and I personally benefit more by knowing something about both.

R..
 
Soggy:
There has been a bunch of debate recently about 'proper' positioning of the exhaust valve, but the final answer is on the upper shoulder.
Final answer?? Really? Where?

One thing I've noticed about the DIR thing since I got involved with it ~ it's more flexible and a lot more adaptable than many folks on the internet boards (nay sayers as well as... *gasp*... some pro DIR folks) make it out to be :wink:
 
First, a little history. I got PADI certified about five years ago and have logged about ten dives between then and now. I enjoyed the few times I went out, but as much as I hate to say it, the guy I was diving with (a cousin of mine) was a "stroke" in every sense of the word. This winter I decided to get my poop in a group and come spring start actively diving. My girlfriend (not yet certified) is very interested in diving with me, and I have no doubt she will be a far better dive buddy than my afore mentioned cousin. I have tried to learn everything I could about the sport (mainly from lurking on this board) and have decided to "do it right" from the start. Which of course, leads to a few questions, which is why I'm here. Please forgive me if I ask something stupid, or has already been addressed, I've tried to find everything I can on these subjects, and still have a few questions.

Let me start with a couple of suggestions to questions you didn't ask:

The DIR video and the fundies book are pretty much required material for anyone interested in learning about DIR before committing the time, energy and dollars to the program. Even if you decide that DIR isn't for you, both are terrific resources and any serious diver should be familiar with them. If you haven't viewed/read both, that's a good place to start.

Dump the word "stroke" from your vocabulary. It's too inflammatory for use in public.

The first question is regarding GUE's open water class, specifically when it might be available.

A long-standing question and one best addressed by GUE or one of their instructors.

The first thing my GF asked me is why she should be required to certify in PADI-OW, only to be immediately retrained, and I really can't blame her.

Another long-standing question. The answer is that the diving that GUE is teaching is not something that every day recreational divers need even if they can benefit from it. Think of it this way: most folks learn to drive through their high school and find that education is good enough for the soccer practice/milk run/work shuffle driving they do. Others decide that they need or want more and take classes from Bondurant. Bondurant doesn't teach you to drive, they teach drivers to excel. By the way, I am not a GUE trained diver, just a fan of the style. To carry the driving analogy a bit far, there is usually more than one road that leads to wherever you want to go.

The other question concerns dry-suits. We are trying to get all our equipment together so we're ready as soon as the ice goes out (we live in Northern Minnesota) and I'd like to buy her some appropriate gear. We both have six percent body fat and would freeze in about sixty seconds flat in wet-suits... As far as I can tell, the DUI TLS-350 is the de-facto-standard of the DIR world, and due to my GF's proportions she'll most likely require a custom made one. My questions are as follows: What's the optimum DIR setup for a dry-suit? Specifically, what exactly is a "cave cut" and how does one order it,

Don't get a cave cut suit if you're planning on cold water diving - it doesn't allow sufficient room for the underwear you're going to want. Stock suits tend to fit not-so-good and create problems with trim so (if you're going to do it right) a custom cut suit may be worth the money. The way to order a custom cut suit is to find someone who has measured a lot of folks for the suit you're going to order and to talk to them and the manufacturer about what you want and what they recommend. Travel may be required.

As to the great trilam/crushed neoprene debate: they both have their merits. I'm a trilam guy, basically because I feel that the light weight, quick drying, better flexibility and ability to make quick and effective field repairs outweigh the concerns about durability. YRMV, but I dive the Great Lakes and have a lot of experience with wrecks, zebra mussels and cold water and haven't changed my mind. Yet.

where do you put the vent to best augment DIR's trim ideals (upper arm or forearm)

Snow has a good point about the "final" answer, DIR has evolved over time and can be a little more slippery than it's adherents want to admit. There is also that niggling question about who, exactly, is in charge of deciding. With the caveat that I'm a Hog diver, I believe the current DIR concensus is upper left arm just a bit forward of midline. If you're horizontal in the water with your arms/hands in a forward position, this is the high point on your shoulder. Placed here, the dump can be operated hands free with a minimum amount of contorting and your forearm remains available for other devices.

and are DUI's zip-in neck and wrist seals (or gloves) DIR compliant?

I hope not. They are cute, unfortunately that's often the first sign of a bad idea. My fellow Hog divers might say that they're fine for normal recreational diving but those with more strenuous requirements still tend to look at them as the latest in a long line of too-clever solutions to a problem that might not need solving. If DIR is about the "best" solution and never settling for good enough, I think zip seals fail the test.
 
Snowbear:
Final answer?? Really? Where?

One thing I've noticed about the DIR thing since I got involved with it ~ it's more flexible and a lot more adaptable than many folks on the internet boards (nay sayers as well as... *gasp*... some pro DIR folks) make it out to be :wink:

The internet is a very poor place to learn about DIR. I've had the opportunity to speak with a few GUE Cave 2 certified divers, and it sounds like GUE has little interest in associating with the pontifications of OW divers with little more than DIR-F under their belt. I'm not DIR, but I'll give credit where it's due - there's alot of fine points that you simply don't get by taking an entry-level class or watching a set of videos, including a willingness to adapt under legitimate circumstances.
 
[Quote:Nostromo] First, a little history. I got PADI certified about five years ago and have logged about ten dives between then and now. I enjoyed the few times I went out, but as much as I hate to say it, the guy I was diving with (a cousin of mine) was a "stroke" in every sense of the word.[/Quote]

This is the stuff that turns people off to DIR. 10 dives in 5 years and some reading on the Internet and your good enough to call someone else a stroke??

If you want to learn DIR from the beggining, thats great. Contact a GUE Instructor, also talk to your instructor before you start buying gear.

Best of Luck

BTW Welcome to the Board!!
 
Snowbear:
Final answer?? Really? Where?

Ok, ok, "final" is not the right word, but what Bob Sherwood told me after consulting with JJ. Recent activity with GI3 on the gavinscooters list also confirms this. You see it a lot in the west coast DIR crowd, but the higher-ups in GUE say no. It solved no problems and creates others (scootering, caving, etc).

FWIW, I have a forearm mounted dump. :)
 
Nostromo:
The first question is regarding GUE's open water class, specifically when it might be available. The first thing my GF asked me is why she should be required to certify in PADI-OW, only to be immediately retrained, and I really can't blame her.
From the perspective of a non-instructor GUE member, the date for the rollout of GUE's open water class seems sorta vague. Last year they said it would be in about a year. That would be about now. So far, however, I have heard nothing about any particular scheduled date for this class to be offered.

Even if GUE announced its OW class tomorrow, where would you take it? One thing to keep in mind is that GUE's OW class will only be taught by GUE-certified instructors, of which there aren't that many. If you want to take a GUE OW class, assuming it is finally announced, you will have to find a GUE instructor in Minnesota (and I don't think there is one), bring one there, or else travel to where one is. Just from a cost perspective, it might be better to find a good standard OW instructor for your "basic training" and then take a Fundamentals course later.


Nostromo:
What's the optimum DIR setup for a dry-suit? Specifically, what exactly is a "cave cut" and how does one order it, where do you put the vent to best augment DIR's trim ideals (upper arm or forearm) and are DUI's zip-in neck and wrist seals (or gloves) DIR compliant? The zip-in seals seem like a good idea, but I would imagine could be considered a serious failure point as well.

"Cave-cut" refers to a specific variation on DUI's standard pattern dry suit. It basically means that the suit is cut with less excess material around the girth than a standard cut. I think it might also involve longer lengths on the arms, but that I'm not sure of. To get a "cave-cut" DUI TLS-350, you need to talk to a DUI dealer, and preferrably one who knows what you are talking about when you say "cave-cut."

The DUI TLS-350 is a great drysuit. The material is more flexible and lighter weight than that used in many competing drysuits. This has advantages and disadvantages. The suit is very flexible and easy to move around in, and it dries out quickly (great when travelling). It is also easier to tear. Competing trilam drysuits, like from Diving Concepts, are somewhat heavier in weight. They are less flexible, dry out more slowly, but are tougher and cheaper than a DUTLS-350. A crushed neoprene drysuit is cheaper yet, warmer, and tougher than a trilam suit, but is slow to dry out and changes buoyancy a bit at depth. From my perspective, none of these choices are "wrong" they just have advantages and disadvantages. A GUE instructor will be able to give you many other specific recommendations on what to look for in a drysuit.

Location of the dump valve is also open to debate, although I believe the most popular position is on the shoulder. I have had suits with both. My current suit came stock with the dump on the forearm and at first I didn't really care for it. Now I've more or less gotten used to it - I just have to stick my arm above the plane of my body to vent air. Since all the air to be dumped has to get up into my forearm, which is a small part of the suit, sometimes I have to sort of shake the air around in the suit to get it up there. The old suit I had with the vent on the shoulder was easier to deal with because the vent was near the torso, which is the biggest airspace in the suit. The forearm vent is better in the situation where you have to control a toxing diver. The shoulder vent is better when scootering and in confined spaces like caves. Either location is manageable, but you should go with the location that better suits the diving you will do.

I don't know anything about the zip seals except what I've read. The people that have actually used them seem to like them. Others see them as useless. For myself, i don't have enough information to form an opinion.
 
Nostromo wrote: "I got PADI certified about five years ago and have logged about ten dives between then and now."

A word of advice from one of the founding fathers of Hogarthian diving and former dive buddy of George Irvine - Bill Gavin - meant in the most meaningful way: "Shut up and dive." You're averaging 2 dives a year. Just get in the water and don't worry about "cave cut" drysuits.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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