DIR Class: The Truth Comes Out

[reubencahn]

Has anyone here taken the DIR-F at Brownie's in Ft. Lauderdale? Have any comments? Will anyone be taking the class there in the near future? Sorry for the off-topic post, but I couldn't find any better thread to post in.

 

[SeaJay]

dbulmer once bubbled...
Seajay,
This is a superb thread!

Holy smokes, it's lookin' that way, isn't it? Thanks, y'all, for allowing this one to eeeeease it's way out without anyone getting heated. I mean, I'm no moderator, but I sure would like to see this thread work out like it has so far.

Why would GUE want to perhaps discourage a device which within normal operating parameters removes human error? I grant that overreliance is not smart but their attitude seems a little luddite. (I concede I may not have understood their reasoning but at face value at least it does not appear to be a reasonable position.)

Well, the truth is that I'm pretty new at this stuff, and I don't wholly know why they have the position they do. I can speculate, but I'm not GUE and I'm not a GUE representative.

Perhaps the computers which pilots use have a much more stellar safety record than the ones that most divers wear? Perhaps it has more to do with the hours and hours of training that pilots get on how to properly use the computers, where divers simply have no training whatsoever?

...What was explained to me was that they discourage the use of computers because they tend to hinder a true understanding of diving physiology. In other words, if you do it in your head - as a backup to planning the dive and diving the plan - then you'll be more adept at it and understand it better... Which especially is an asset in an emergency situation.

Does that mean that I'm a "stroke" for practicing something that I don't know the reasoning for? Some would say yes... But the truth is that when I dive (which is no-deco diving) I plan my dive and dive my plan using tables... And "on the fly" use the Rule of 120. On my wrist, though, is a computer which tracks my dive in 20 second intervals. Later, when I'm done my dive, I'll download my profile and see how close my impression of my dive was to my actual dive. There's a lot to be learned that way, IMHO.

 

[DeepScuba]

Trust me, I don't learn this "stuff" from the net,......pahhleeeze.

How do I know that I'm XX%DIR if I've never taken the class??

Easy. I've "heard" the speeches etc etc etc that ARE on the NET. From the actual guys teaching the stuff, and not the friend of a friend says..........

EASY, because that's ALSO how I was taught by my TDI Tech instructor.

How did you think I know what they say?

EASY.......either you're DIR or not....pahhleeze AGAIN!!!!

SO I use a computer.............must be only 99% DIR, so I guess I'm not DIR then.

How silly is that? C'mon, use the brain you've been given man, it's pure and simple SUBJECTIVE OPINION on this and a few more issues........

Oh yes, since I don't have a custom machined piston in my Reg, does that mean I'm not DIR????

Oh yes, since I have a high-performance alternate Reg does this ALSO mean I'm not DIR??

THat AGAIN is stupid thinking.

The supposed reasoning is............

"You don't want the high performance Reg to be a free-flow candidate......"

My ANSWER:

Turn the F****** Knob down to MIN........idiots!!!!

It'll act EXACTLY like a downstream R190!!!!!

Holy Crap..........I throw the BS Flag down large!!!!!!!!!

THINK!!!!

They urge you to THINK!!!!!!

So do it!!!


Tell your buddy to post the "Magic" formula, if you won't. I gotta see how it's done, if for no other reason than to "dry" test it agianst my actual profiles.

I'm not against change for the correct reasons, it's too bad to many people, including the official "DIR Dudes" are.

 

[MHK]

dbulmer once bubbled...
Seajay,

Why would GUE want to perhaps discourage a device which within normal operating parameters removes human error? I grant that overreliance is not smart but their attitude seems a little luddite. (I concede I may not have understood their reasoning but at face value at least it does not appear to be a reasonable position.)

There are a few considerations to recognize with respect to the understanding behind the computer issue. As you suggest a device, when operating, renders information that was plugged in by other humans. That being said, the only thing a computer does is calculate in real time, that which a programmer programmed it to calculate. Therein lies the very essence of the problem, notwithstanding the issue respecting to overreliance.

In short, most of the in-water computers, have Buhlman based algorithms [ there is a movement towards RGBM based models recently], but by-in-large most computers use a Buhlman algorithm with very conservative gradient factors set to allow for the lowest common denominator of the dive industry. In short, computers are promoted as a way to "increase" bottom times, but more realistically don't. Furthermore, GUE advocates the use of deep stops incorporated into the ascent profile. Buhlman based algorithms actually penalize you for doing deep stops, whereas we believe that deep stops benefit you. Furthermore, by lacking a computer you start to appreciate and understand ascent rates, shaping of deco curves and so forth. This is critical as you start to realize that a computer doesn't know your body the way you do.. In other words, how do you feel after a dive??? Are you in poor shape or great physical condition?? Are you older, obese, have a PFO, hydrated, etc. etc... The point being is that there is a wide range of variables that must be built into the gradient factor by the manufacturers, and our belief is that why pay $400 something dollars for a device that can fail, provides unreliable information and is produced for the lowest common denominator???

Hope that more clearly explains the concept, but it is important to distinguish between "recreational" diving and "decompression" diving. I understand why many want a computer in the recreational world, but I'm at a loss to understand why anyone would consider buying a computer in the technical environment..

Regards

 

[ScottyK]

DeepScuba once bubbled...


Scotty:

Thanks for making my point. Is the computer the limitting factor?? Or was it lazy human nature???

If it 's the later, the DIR thing to do.......



WOULD NOT be to "Fudge" the fix by removing the computer, but should rather be to "FIX" the problem of human laziness to proper understanding/training.




NOW HOW DAMN DIR was that statement!!!!

It was neither. You mis-read my post. I did not say I wasn't using tables, or that I forgot how to use them. I said I used to have the whole thing "memorized". I could quote bottom time for any depth off the top of my head without looking at the table.

I went this far because I trust my brain more than a computer. Part of the reason that my (so far limited) research into DIR has been a positive experience for me, is because they seem to think along those lines as well.

My using a computer as a bottom timer isn't fudging anything. It has a bottom time display so I'm not going to go out and spend money on something that's "just" a bottom timer until I need to.

I'm just keeping an open mind, trying new ideas, and growing as a diver every day. You'll never see me "picking sides", using expressions like "drinking the kool aid" or "stroke" or belittling anyone elses' opinion on anything. You can learn something from just about anyone.

Scott

 

[DeepScuba]

NO realy SeaJay, this is a great thread!!!

The only "Heat" I'm putting up is the one on the DIR ONLY, DON'T DIVE WITH A STROKE, and WE'LL TELL WHAT A STROKE IS"....

type of mentality.

I've put up but only 2 glaring errors (Glaring in the light of almost perfection, I might add) on how their own mantra isn't 100% DIR.

I can walk, talk and act just like them, and I can think and reason where I may be wrong, and another be correct.

Would it make them feel better if I said what I learned off of them just yesterday?

OK, done.

Now, lets see them get real and answer my questions posed here.


The lack of a computer is hilarious for the "just in case" situation, and the high Perf 2nd's are the same none-to-thought-out positions as well.

You need 2 regs, and you need a redundant timer anyways. It ain't no more or less gear to clutter up or hinder you, so use the best thing for the job........why wouldn't you?

Either that, or bring back the Bungied wings of death and only 1 back-up light, and no islolator, and no long hose, and no right post breathing.........................and .............

Great thread SeaJay, I ain't steamed at anything, incase anyone thinks I am!!!

 

[SeaJay]

DeepScuba once bubbled...
Trust me, I don't learn this "stuff" from the net,......pahhleeeze.

How do I know that I'm XX%DIR if I've never taken the class??

Easy. I've "heard" the speeches etc etc etc that ARE on the NET. From the actual guys teaching the stuff, and not the friend of a friend says..........

EASY, because that's ALSO how I was taught by my TDI Tech instructor.

How did you think I know what they say?

EASY.......either you're DIR or not....pahhleeze AGAIN!!!!

SO I use a computer.............must be only 99% DIR, so I guess I'm not DIR then.

How silly is that? C'mon, use the brain you've been given man, it's pure and simple SUBJECTIVE OPINION on this and a few more issues........

Oh yes, since I don't have a custom machined piston in my Reg, does that mean I'm not DIR????

Oh yes, since I have a high-performance alternate Reg does this ALSO mean I'm not DIR??

THat AGAIN is stupid thinking.

The supposed reasoning is............

"You don't want the high performance Reg to be a free-flow candidate......"

My ANSWER:

Turn the F****** Knob down to MIN........idiots!!!!

It'll act EXACTLY like a downstream R190!!!!!

Holy Crap..........I throw the BS Flag down large!!!!!!!!!

THINK!!!!

They urge you to THINK!!!!!!

So do it!!!


Tell your buddy to post the "Magic" formula, if you won't. I gotta see how it's done, if for no other reason than to "dry" test it agianst my actual profiles.

I'm not against change for the correct reasons, it's too bad to many people, including the official "DIR Dudes" are.

Wow.

Man, this is awfully close to a flame.

I'm not a moderator... And I have no right to tell anyone what to do at this point, but I'm awfully protective of this thread... Y'all even have the participation of MHK here, GUE instructor... And the "Mike Kane" from my DIR-F class in the beginning of the thread.

All I can ask is that y'all please be respectful to each other... The longer we can stay out of the flames, the better this thread is going to be.

I ask that you be aware of the fact that we're all virtually in a room together; thus, please don't say anything here that you wouldn't say with them standing right next to you. Remember, everyone here - whether DIR or not - may be a very accomplished diver.

Think you can let this one slide, DD? We already know what you were going to say.

...And DeepScuba, I don't think there's anyone more qualified to answer questions about GUE and it's practices than MHK. Perhaps he'll address them for you.

Okay, I am not playing moderator... I am not playing moderator... I am not playing moderator...

Can we just have just one DIR thread that's a positive experience for all?

 

[detroit diver]

LOL!! That's pretty funny!

Maybe you can ask them yourself. You can find them under the instructor's list on www.gue.com

Look for Brandon Schwartz and Scot Wernette.

Don't hold your breath........

DeepScuba once bubbled...
...............


Tell your buddy to post the "Magic" formula, if you won't. .........

 

[MHK]

I haven't followed this thread in it's entirety but I did just post an explanation of the rationale behind our thinking about computers. If I've failed to address all of the issues that you've raised in this thread, please present your issues in a cogent fashion and I'll be happy to address them. Bear in mind I have no desrire for a flame war, if you have a question I'll be happy to answer it..

Regards,

Michael Kane
GUE Instructor 5027

DeepScuba once bubbled...
NO realy SeaJay, this is a great thread!!!

The only "Heat" I'm putting up is the one on the DIR ONLY, DON'T DIVE WITH A STROKE, and WE'LL TELL WHAT A STROKE IS"....

type of mentality.

I've put up but only 2 glaring errors (Glaring in the light of almost perfection, I might add) on how their own mantra isn't 100% DIR.

I can walk, talk and act just like them, and I can think and reason where I may be wrong, and another be correct.

Would it make them feel better if I said what I learned off of them just yesterday?

OK, done.

Now, lets see them get real and answer my questions posed here.


The lack of a computer is hilarious for the "just in case" situation, and the high Perf 2nd's are the same none-to-thought-out positions as well.

You need 2 regs, and you need a redundant timer anyways. It ain't no more or less gear to clutter up or hinder you, so use the best thing for the job........why wouldn't you?

Either that, or bring back the Bungied wings of death and only 1 back-up light, and no islolator, and no long hose, and no right post breathing.........................and .............

Great thread SeaJay, I ain't steamed at anything, incase anyone thinks I am!!!

 

[detroit diver]

SeaJay once bubbled...


...........
Think you can let this one slide, DD? We already know what you were going to say.

.........

I did, for the most part!