DIR Class: The Truth Comes Out

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I visit my mom in Columbia, SC several times a year, so I'll definitely have to find my way down and dive with you guys. I just showed my son (13 year old diver) the 360 deg. picture on your website, and he got pretty excited, so there may be two of us when he get's some more experience. That's a great picture, I've never seen that type of picture before. Water is really clear....how deep is that?

No, I haven't taken fundamentals yet, but planning on it. I've felt if I take it now, I'd be woefully prepared (want to get a wing/backplate, then comfortable with it). After reading your post, I think I need to wait and get some more experience. I got certified 17 years ago, but just got serious about diving last summer (in college and starting a family, never could justify the cost till now, but now I'm fully geared and diving regularly).

Maybe you and I will have to super powers diving together, you know like the Super Twins, given our being born within 24 hours....the sign of pisces is a fish....or maybe not:)
 
crawford once bubbled...
I visit my mom in Columbia, SC several times a year, so I'll definitely have to find my way down and dive with you guys.

Columbia's a few hours north of us... It would definitely be worth the trip. :)


I just showed my son (13 year old diver) the 360 deg. picture on your website, and he got pretty excited, so there may be two of us when he get's some more experience.

That's too cool.

I don't have any kids, but my sweetheart - RavenC - has a 12 year old named Cody. We're taking him to Ginnie this weekend. There seems to be a lot of interest there, too.

How cool would it be if the two got along and had a mutual interest?


That's a great picture, I've never seen that type of picture before. Water is really clear....how deep is that?

You know, I wish I could claim it. It was donated to the Club by a visitor. If I were hard-pressed to take a guess at where it was, I'd say that it was in either the Caribbean or South Atlantic waters. In fact, it might actually be on the South Gulf side of Florida. I can tell you that the fish are definitely saltwater fish, and that the encreustaceans on the pilings are too light to be mid-Atlantic or higher. If it were California, everyone would be wearing thicker exposure protection. Those factors, plus the fact that there's such good visibility, I'd say that this is probably a Caribbean dive... In about 35 feet of water. Anyone know any better?

At any rate, it's very cool, isn't it?


No, I haven't taken fundamentals yet, but planning on it. I've felt if I take it now, I'd be woefully prepared (want to get a wing/backplate, then comfortable with it). After reading your post, I think I need to wait and get some more experience. I got certified 17 years ago, but just got serious about diving last summer (in college and starting a family, never could justify the cost till now, but now I'm fully geared and diving regularly).

Maybe you and I will have to super powers diving together, you know like the Super Twins, given our being born within 24 hours....the sign of pisces is a fish....or maybe not:)

...Even stranger that we have kids (well, mine's borrowed, but I'm trying to make him mine) that are near the same age... Apparently with the same interests.

Don't be afraid to take the DIR course, no matter what your skill level. My experience has been exactly like yours... I first dived in 1986, but didn't get serious about it until a year and a half ago. Since then, I've done a ton of diving, though. And I'd like to find other like-minded individuals. I recommend the course. Borrow a bp/wing... There's no need to buy one right off.
 
OK SeaJay, spill the beans........I just came across this thread today, and I read all 8 pages worth.

I've "listened" to a lot of DIR propoganda (if that's what you wanna call it). I guess I'm already about 70%-80% DIR, so it seems. It's just how I was taught, so I can't really relate to any other way that some of you were taught.

That being said, the balance of my non-DIR ways are as follows........my biggie question to you..you stated earlier (6 months ago earlier) that you can do "Deco" without computers, in fact the DIR "way" is no computers, if I understand correctly.

How may I ask is this great feat performed? Simple math???

I know I haven't got the secret handshake and the cool badge yet, but can this non-offical non-DIR "Stroke" gain some insight into this?

I'd love to NOT have to buy a NitecHE.....Oh yes, is this "Math" for Tri-mix as well???

Please, lemme know, really.

Please tell me it isn't my usual "Yugoslavian Deco" the one that goes.......Hmmmm I cut my bottom time short by 2 minutes...carry the one, minus Tissues cmpt#3 plus an M-value or two.....shoot I've been hanging here for 10 minutes, I'm cold and this is enough!!!!

Hahah
 
Well...

I've been asked that question quite a bit.

...And let me make this clear... My "training" with it has been little more than a little reading, a little understanding, and some mention of it in my basic DIR-F class. I am by no means an expert at it, and so I would STRONGLY recommend checking this information out before using it. Please do not try to get training on the Internet; I am not an instructor; disclaimer, disclaimer, disclaimer... Etc.

I have declined to answer this question in the past, for exactly the above reasons. I simply am not knowlegable enough to be entrusted with your life. However, the last time I refused to answer, I got all kinds of nasty accusations - like "cult" status - secret handshake - "Why aren't I cool enough for you to share this info" - and stuff like that.

...So now that it's clear to me that I can't win no matter what the answer is that I give... Well... I'll simply share what I know and try to point you in the right direction.

The basic concept is this... And it comes from noticing a pattern in the standard PADI OW Dive Table. Check this out:

Depth + Bottom Time = 120

Okay, everyone pull out their tables... Look at them. At 60 feet, you can go roughly 60 minutes before requiring staged decompression. 70 feet is 50 minutes, 80 is 40, etc. That's the big math.

Notice how the ends are inaccurate, though. For example, according to PADI, you have more time than 10 minutes at 110 feet.. And at 120 you do not have "0" minutes. Notice the other end as well... According to the "Rule of 120," you should have 90 minutes at 30 feet, but that's off as well.

...But the point is that there is a pattern there, and I'm reciting the above from memory... Without looking at a table. But the point is that there is a pattern, and with a little practice, the Rule of 120 can become a valuable tool for quickly judging where you are in your saturation.

Here's an interesting idea... For repetitive dives, ensure that there's at least a 1 hour SIT and then apply a "Rule of 110" instead of a "Rule of 120." Go ahead. Create a profile... Then see how accurate it is. With the exception of the very ends of the spectrum, it's alarmingly accurate. The ends of the spectrum can then be judged if you "get" the basic concepts. Interestingly, this method is actually a little conservative.

Now, in DIR diving, there's a few tenants that "build in" a safety margin which helps these judgements... Firstly, DIR teaches that diving isn't something you just leave at the quarry or on the boat... DIR teaches fitness and improved cardiovascular shape as well. Additionally, DIR teaches an ascent rate of no more than 30 fpm; half as fast as what PADI was teaching a year and a half ago. They also teach a horizontal ascent (which is thought to help the body to maintain a constant pressure throughout, aiding in offgassing) and a specialized "safety stop" which is a series of small stops at 30 feet, 20 feet, and 10 feet, rather than one longer "safety stop" at 15 feet. Then... They teach a more consistent form of diving that removes the "spikes" in a dive profile, and then they teach "depth averaging" rather than basing your profile on max depth only.

What's important to understand is that these ideals - and the methods taught by GUE - rely on certain criteria. They rely on the fact that you're going to keep your DCS vulnerability lower than average with a fitness regimen. They rely on the fact that you're going to keep a simpler and less "spikey" profile (and have better buoyancy control) so that depth averaging can work safely. They rely on the proper ascent rate and proper stops and the whole gammut... Which, as a whole, creates a very safe dive style. Without all of it in place (what they call "holistic"), the style can be very unsafe to dive.

...Which is why DIR guys are reluctant to share. It's not that they want to keep it secret. In fact, they'd love to share. It's that if someone reads this post and simply pulls one thing out of it (Rule of 120, for example) but then neglects to read on, and does multiple dives using that rule... Well, that's putting that person at risk. They've misunderstood - and you can quickly feel responsible.

...Which is why I've refused to answer the question in the past.

There's lots and lots of other pieces of information that they teach, too... For example, there is a similar (and just as simple) way of doing a calculation for different %'s of EANx. Ditto for Trimix. However, learning the basics - in this case, the Rule of 120, as well as the dive style that allows for safe depth averaging - must first be mastered before one can safely learn manipulations of the equation and thus be safe on other gasses.

...Which is why I highly recommend taking DIR-F. While the class wasn't designed to go into the Rule of 120, the instructors are there and able to share answers to your questions... And they are qualified to talk about this stuff. Let me be clear on this: I am not qualified. That doesn't mean that I don't have an understanding, but I am not qualified. Period.

If this information interests you, then I recommend taking DIR-F and learning the basics... Then graduating into GUE's Tech courses where they officially teach this stuff.

...So why not just "take the easy road" and use a computer? Well... There's lots of other benefits along the way... Not to mention other info that you pick up on that has not even been mentioned here. Also, how much better prepared is a diver who understands his/her own physiology and some quick methods of on-the-fly calculation, but also plans the dive and dives the plan... Than someone who has no clue but simply goes up when the numbers (and the programmer who put them there) says to do so?

To my knowlege, DIR (GUE) does not say "no computers." What they say is to first understand the concepts... Then plan your dive... Then dive your plan... And understand how to handle the situation if things suddenly don't go according to plan. If you want to have a computer while doing these things, then fine. What they specifically recommend AGAINST is the diver who does not understand the concepts... Does not plan the dive... Does not dive the plan... And instead simply "goes up" when the little battery box says to "go up."

...And as many people here have mentioned before, diving with a "battery box" on a regular basis encourages the latter, not the former. DIR knows that if you practice being the guy who understands, when **** hits the fan, guess what you'll be good at? Conversely, if you're the guy who's been taught to rely on the battery box, then the problem is much bigger if something goes wrong. You simply don't have the same level of understanding and experience as someone who regularly dives without a "battery box."

...Which is why, specifically, GUE's standing on computers is "We discourage the use of dive computers." That's it. That's all. No mention of being beat with wet noodles or getting your Kool-Aid peed in. They simply discourage it; no magic involved. When you step back and look at the big picture, it's easy to see why they discourage the use of them.

Anyway. That's it in a nutshell. A very big nutshell, yes... But a nutshell nonetheless. Please do not take my word for it, but go out and find out for yourself.
 
Interesting explanation SeaJay ... I can appreciate the time and thought you put into it.

But I have to wonder about some of the terminology that seems to be a part of every DIR discussion ...

battery box?
poodle jacket?
death clips?
bondage wing?

Where do you guys come up with this stuff? And why are terms that are meant to disparage the way other folks do stuff such an integral part of the DIR way of explaining things?

It's really distracting to what is otherwise a good message.

Simply put, a dive computer is nothing more than a tool ... and like any tool it can be used or misused. As you say, understanding the concepts is the key. To my way of thinking, that's why every agency teaches their open water students how to use dive tables. It's as much about teaching the concepts of decompression theory as it is about actually using the tables to plan a dive.

So how does GUE teach the person who doesn't have the requisite skills to do math in their head? And there are many of those out there. The simple answer is - if the "battery box" goes blank, you do a slow ascent, perform your requisite safety (or deco) stops, and end the dive. To my knowledge, everybody teaches that.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
It's quite interesting. I can see how it would work reasonably well for non-deco diving, square (or sloped) profile
I have some doubts how this would work for decompression dives though (including trimix) - how would you calculate your stop lenghts (including deep stops)?
Although I think long deco dives = slate & tables.
Not that I've done any, but just thinking about what all can go wrong, I'd say computer as a "quick check", but tables based schedule (and backup schedule) on a slate always.
I probably would be willing to go with two exactly the same (good) computers, as it would provide the redundancy and what computers can do tables just as well as I can - in fact, chances are that my tables would be generated by my home computer anyway, and the computer can adjust to some unexpected situations on the fly (now I said it, go and burn me on a stake :) ).
But maybe someone more experienced will shed some light on this (hopefully w/o starting another flame war)
V.
 
...nor do I play one on TV, so I figure it's OK if I DON'T rely on my feeble brain to plan my deco and instead use software on my home PC, then run it through my Suunto planner (it ALWAYS likes the profile and "clears" way before the PC plan!), and also planning a +10, +20 and -10 contingency. I also do a lost deco gas contingency. I scrawl these on my wrist slate in *gasp* pencil before I do the dive. I use the Vyper as a backup and my plan D (or E or whatever) if the poop really hit the fan blades is, hopefully, I can at least clear the "battery box" "bend-o-matic" before I have to surface. Probably way more reliable than what little grey matter I was born with anyway...

Ender once bubbled...
It's quite interesting. I can see how it would work reasonably well for non-deco diving, square (or sloped) profile
I have some doubts how this would work for decompression dives though (including trimix) - how would you calculate your stop lenghts (including deep stops)?
Although I think long deco dives = slate & tables.
Not that I've done any, but just thinking about what all can go wrong, I'd say computer as a "quick check", but tables based schedule (and backup schedule) on a slate always.
I probably would be willing to go with two exactly the same (good) computers, as it would provide the redundancy and what computers can do tables just as well as I can - in fact, chances are that my tables would be generated by my home computer anyway, and the computer can adjust to some unexpected situations on the fly (now I said it, go and burn me on a stake :) ).
But maybe someone more experienced will shed some light on this (hopefully w/o starting another flame war)
V.
 
NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...

But I have to wonder about some of the terminology that seems to be a part of every DIR discussion ...

battery box?
poodle jacket?
death clips?
bondage wing?

I don't think I've heard the term "battery box" before... I thought I made that up myself. :) I thought I was being witty and creative.

If it offends someone, I'm sorry. For reference, I happen to own a "battery box" of my own. That doesn't mean, of course, that I stake my life on it, though...

I'm not sure where I heard, "poodle jacket" before, but I've heard it in numerous places, most of which weren't DIR specific.

By "death clips," I think you mean, "suicide clips." I always thought they got their name from the concept that if you swim by a net or monofilament or even cave line, they tend to catch easily... Thus facilitating an entaglement, which can be lethal if the wrong series of events follows. I don't know where I first heard the term, but do you not find the name descriptive and entertaining?

I think the term "bondage wings" was coined as an equally lighthearted poke at the bungee wings that some manufactures make. In and of itself, the name does not imply anything derrogatory. To the best of my recollection, someone once said and "bondage wings" sounded kinda kinky and the name stuck.

Heck, I'm not even going to tell you where my name "SeaJay" came from. You'd think my friends were horrible people. :) Yes, people really do call me that in real life.


Where do you guys come up with this stuff? And why are terms that are meant to disparage the way other folks do stuff such an integral part of the DIR way of explaining things?

It's really distracting to what is otherwise a good message.

Hm. Sorry 'bout that... DIR instructors regularly tell newly DIR trained divers to resist trying to teach DIR to others, but instead recommend pointing inquisitive people back to the original instructor. An explanation is quick: "You may not be the best representation of DIR." Agreed, DIR has had some half-informed individuals claim to be "DIR" and thus it's possible that DIR's reputation - which has been associated with these people - has suffered.

Thus, it's "possible that I might not be the best representation of DIR." If I used a derrogatory phrase which clouds the message, then by all means, I accept responsibility for it. DIR did not train me to refer to a computer as a "battery box." I thought I was being witty. There is no reference to a "battery box" in the DIR-F manual. :)


Simply put, a dive computer is nothing more than a tool ... and like any tool it can be used or misused. As you say, understanding the concepts is the key. To my way of thinking, that's why every agency teaches their open water students how to use dive tables. It's as much about teaching the concepts of decompression theory as it is about actually using the tables to plan a dive.

Exactly.

The Rule of 120 is simply an easy way to remember the tables to some degree of accuracy. Like a computer, it's simply a tool to keep you safe. Plus, it impresses the girls at parties. :) No, just kidding. :D


So how does GUE teach the person who doesn't have the requisite skills to do math in their head? And there are many of those out there. The simple answer is - if the "battery box" goes blank, you do a slow ascent, perform your requisite safety (or deco) stops, and end the dive. To my knowledge, everybody teaches that.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Well, that's true... All agencies do teach that, just as they teach proper buoyancy and trim control and even encourage a healthier lifestyle, quoting cardiovascular fitness as a tenant to uphold. In fact, my PADI OW manual specifically made a point to mention the avoidance of alcohol and tobacco use, especially on a regular basis. Of course, it also mentioned the avoidance of alcohol altogether prior to the dive.

Also, for reference... To the best of my knowlege GUE does not offer a certification course. In other words, if you want to learn how to dive, you must first do it through PADI, SSI, NAUI, YMCA, or the like. Then, after being certified, DIR-F is the basic course which GUE offers. While it's not the case now, there was a time very recently where DIR-F had no certification attached to it (you do get a card now for successful completion).

My point is that GUE is not a replacement for PADI, SSI, NAUI, etc... GUE simply offers a course that has a rather "focused" approach to skills that are only touched on by other agencies. They also introduce a new set of skills - which are basically a different approach to the same activities underwater. These skills include primary second stage donation, trim and buoyancy control, positioning in the water column, and body control. Simply put, it's a different approach to the same activities that were taught by the mainstream agencies.

...And after having taken the course, I've found that I prefer their methods, and subscribe to them. Not everyone feels this way, but those who have been introduced to them usually adopt some of the skill sets that they would not have been aware of otherwise.

Why does GUE teach these differing skill sets? Well...

GUE was borne of the underwater cave systems in Wakulla. After some successful and not-so-successful dives, a group of divers was formed that developed a method of diving - a skill set - that emphasized those skills which would be most applicable in their particular situation. These skill sets addressed the problems which they found most common in the world record breaking dives that they were performing. Therefore, it can be said with some accuracy that not every diver needs the skill sets... Not every diver needs to have perfect buoyancy, use a rule of thirds, plan the dive and dive the plan, be able to reach his/her valves, or deploy a long hose in an OOA emergency. However, after having been exposed to the skill sets, I personally feel that the skill sets enhance my enjoyment of the sport... And significantly raise my level of safety in all diving situations. Understanding the Rule of 120, deploying the long hose, practicing my skills regularly, and even changing some of my bad lifestyle habits have never been a detriment in any diving situation that I've ever been in. Instead, these skills have always increased my control, added to the safety margin of my dive, and generally allowed me to enjoy diving more - and more safely.

For this reason, I find myself often recommending the class, even to those people who never plan to cave dive. At this point in the refinement of the skills being taught, there is so much benefit to having the extra skill set that the actual diving environment plays a much less significant role in my diving. I dive easier and safer, enjoy more, and understand more than I would if I did not have the skills.

...And to think that I'm still a baby at this... How exciting...

Oh yeah... You asked me about how GUE teaches someone who does not have the math skills to do the prerequisite math in their head. The answer is, "I don't know." Everyone I took the class with was capable of subtracting their depth from 120, especially if they rounded their numbers. What's left is bottom time. Simple.

If the person can't do the math, then I suspect that the "DIR way" would encourage that person to learn to subtract one number from another... But I'm speculating - because I have not seen them address the issue before.
 
Ender once bubbled...
It's quite interesting. I can see how it would work reasonably well for non-deco diving...

Yes.

Here's the funny part... Most computers that I've seen on people's wrists and consoles are exactly that... Computers designed to show you a no decompression limit. Most of the ones I've seen specifically warn against using them for decompression. This includes the Uwatecs and the entire line of Suuntos which are so popular.

My point is that having these specific brands does not enable you to do any more than the Rule of 120 enables you to do.

Of course, your original question was about the NiTek and other "decompression" computers. Let me be frank here: I have not been trained to talk about decompression yet, and I can not say with true understanding how, exactly, GUE trains for decompression. I'm simply not even qualified to talk about it, and I would most certainly provide incorrect information if I did.

I do recall seeing some of the instructors utilizing V-planner, however, which is a freely distributed decompression software program designed to run on a desktop or laptop computer. I understood that they were using the software to develop their plan, and that after the plan was discussed and shared with all team members, they simply went out and dove it. Now, what I witnessed could have simply been research"ish" in nature, and may not even be what's taught in class... I'm simply relaying my innocent observation.

If that was the case, then it proves that GUE is not allergic to computers... But it also proves that the computer was not relied opon as life support, but instead as a tool by which to plan the dive.


...But maybe someone more experienced will shed some light on this (hopefully w/o starting another flame war)
V.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. Whatever we disagree or agree on, let's keep that in mind - that we all agree that there will be no flaming. This is a great thread, and it'd be really cool to keep it that way and share ideas and opinions - right or wrong - without flaming.
 
SeaJay once bubbled...

Here's the funny part... Most computers that I've seen on people's wrists and consoles are exactly that... Computers designed to show you a no decompression limit.

It doesn't surprise me at all. A lot of people (myself including) are lazy by nature.
Unfortunately, once we delegate something to our tools we forget all the surrounding things and take for granted that the machine will always do the right thing.

But as the TDI deco procedures manual says: "Though dive computers make many tasks easier, they don't on-gas or off-gas, YOU do.". When you have to do things manualy, I'd say you're more aware of this.
Vlad
 

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