Delay AOW?

[mikerault]

As an OW qualified you can still do deeper diver and more difficult dives with a DM or instructor present. In most situations you will be diving with a DM from a dive boat or shore facility so just go with it. I did 79 dives as OW, deep, wreck, night, etc. before I did my AOW.


Mike

 

[jponline77]

The problem I have with the DM approach is availability. I want to go diving this weekend and noone is available. My wife and I are just going to go by ourselves for the first time and take it real easy. She's a bit nervous but I think we'll be fine. It's a dive we've done a few times before.

In our area dive shops offer free dives with DM. I also got along really well with the DM from our OW course. He is willing to help us with what we need. Even offered to give drysuit orientation for free. However, nobody from the dive shops or the DM from OW course is available... oh well!

JP

JP

 

[jponline77]

As an OW qualified you can still do deeper diver and more difficult dives with a DM or instructor present. In most situations you will be diving with a DM from a dive boat or shore facility so just go with it. I did 79 dives as OW, deep, wreck, night, etc. before I did my AOW.

The dive shops that I work with follow PADI guidelines and will not dive past 60ft without an advanced or deep dive certification. Similar for night diving.

JP

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Ok, so this obviously is NOT going to be a popular opinion...but I encourage my students to take AOW directly following their OW course. The reason...in OW the students are taken through a series of skills they need to be able to demonstrate "mastery" of, to get certified to dive. Oh...and then they go on a short tour of the dive site, usually just watching the fins of the instructor or DM that is leading the dive.

So, following any of the OW courses from any of the certification agencies...are they ready to grab a buddy from their class and go dive? Theoretically, yes. But most students are still a bit green after only 4 dives. (Or maybe I'm the only one who was...?)

It really depends on a lot of things ... how the class is structured ... how many students you're trying to teach at once ... how much pool time you're giving the students before taking them to OW ... and a host of other factors. When I was a DM I worked for a while with an instructor (PADI, in fact) who would give his students a total of six OW dives ... the final two were on a boat. The last dive of the OW class was on Pt. Defiance North Wall, and the students were expected to pretty much do it all on their own ... each team had a DM along to watch and evaluate, but not to "lead".

Yeah, these students were paying about $400 for their OW instruction, but they were definitely able to pair up and dive independent of supervision after the class was completed.

AOW = Advanced OPEN WATER. This is not advanced diving. This is taking the skills that you learn in OW and applying those to 5 real dive situations, adding task loading (i.e. more instruction with navigation, using lighting underwater, etc.) all under the supervision of an instructor.

It's a basic difference in how we approach AOW instruction. In AOW I'm teaching my students how to shoot SMB's, how to do mid-water ascents and hold stops without having to rely on an upline, how to use lift bags to recover objects, how to plan and lead dives, calculate their gas consumption based on a dive plan before they do the dive, navigate under a variety of conditions (including mid-water, where they can't see the bottom), and a host of other skills that I would call advanced skills. Someone fresh out of OW would not be able to complete the dives I expect my AOW students to do. So far I've only accepted one student into AOW with less than 20 dives total ... and that's because he was an exceptionally quick learner.

Now, being able to appreciate those who want to get a few more dives under their belt before they take AOW...I would strongly suggest that they find someone with some experience and certs under their belt to dive with. Club dives are good ways to do this.

What I wouldn't want to see...two OW students fresh from class, an unforeseen emergency arises, minimal rescue skills, still trying to figure their gear AND their buddies gear out. Yeah, that's just not a scenario that I want to hear that my students were in.

I teach basic rescue (tows, theory) in OW...but realistically, with all that you learn in OW, are you really prepared to be the lead diver in a rescue with your OW cert?

I will (and do) happily take my new OW grads diving, or help them hook up with other experienced divers to get some practice and bottom time ... but yes, I do expect my OW grads to be able to dive independent of supervision. Local diving conditions demand it ... diving in Puget Sound requires a certain level of skills and self-sufficiency, and the OW grad should be able to plan and conduct a dive within the limits imposed by OW training with a comparably-trained dive buddy. I won't sign their C-card until I feel that they can do so.

I believe in more education. There's alot to learn in scuba...and there's two ways to learn everything. The easy way, and the hard way.

There's more options than that ... mentorship continues to be the mainstay of diver education. Hooking up with a more experienced diver and going out on fun dives isn't learning the hard way ... it's an invaluable path to honing what you've learned and picking up new skills through practice and context. You can learn things that way that none of the major agencies will ever teach you in a class setting. You will gain an understanding of things that, in your class, were only theoretical and don't really mean much until you've experienced them. More importantly, you will be better prepared ... because of your experiences ... to use that next class to take your diving to a higher level.

What I never want one of my students to do is to walk out of one of my classes wondering whether or not it was worth taking ... and if all I can manage to do is reinforce skills and knowledge they had learned in previous classes, it wasn't.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Jasonmh]

Ok, so this obviously is NOT going to be a popular opinion...but I encourage my students to take AOW directly following their OW course. The reason...in OW the students are taken through a series of skills they need to be able to demonstrate "mastery" of, to get certified to dive. Oh...and then they go on a short tour of the dive site, usually just watching the fins of the instructor or DM that is leading the dive.

So, following any of the OW courses from any of the certification agencies...are they ready to grab a buddy from their class and go dive? Theoretically, yes. But most students are still a bit green after only 4 dives. (Or maybe I'm the only one who was...?)

AOW = Advanced OPEN WATER. This is not advanced diving. This is taking the skills that you learn in OW and applying those to 5 real dive situations, adding task loading (i.e. more instruction with navigation, using lighting underwater, etc.) all under the supervision of an instructor.

Now, being able to appreciate those who want to get a few more dives under their belt before they take AOW...I would strongly suggest that they find someone with some experience and certs under their belt to dive with. Club dives are good ways to do this.

What I wouldn't want to see...two OW students fresh from class, an unforeseen emergency arises, minimal rescue skills, still trying to figure their gear AND their buddies gear out. Yeah, that's just not a scenario that I want to hear that my students were in.

I teach basic rescue (tows, theory) in OW...but realistically, with all that you learn in OW, are you really prepared to be the lead diver in a rescue with your OW cert?

I believe in more education. There's alot to learn in scuba...and there's two ways to learn everything. The easy way, and the hard way.

Cindy
http://www.girldiver.com

I think I see part of where you are coming from. But the Advanced instructors I have talked to (admitedly, only a few), have said the opposite of what you are saying. When I asked them if they would rather have a student take AOW right after OW, or have the student wait a bit, they all said they would rather have a student that waited. Their reasoning was that, as a new OW diver, they were still trying to master other skills, and they found that it was very difficult to teach navigation to someone who is permanently distracted keeping control on their bouyancy. In other words, the new divers were so absorbed in performing the basics that they could not devote enough time to really learning what the AOW instructors were teaching. Have you run in to that with any of your students?

 

[Ber Rabbit]

I want to go diving this weekend and noone is available. My wife and I are just going to go by ourselves for the first time and take it real easy. She's a bit nervous but I think we'll be fine. It's a dive we've done a few times before.

This is probably the perfect approach. You are diving a familiar site and you intend to take it easy. I like to offer my students an opportunity to do a dive on their own the day of certification. They finish their final certification dive then plan their first "real" dive and I check the plan. I bid them "good diving", write down what time they descend then I pace the dock until they get back The ones that make that first dive "on their own" have always come back with huge smiles even though they admitted that at first it was a little weird knowing if there were any problems they had to handle them on their own. I can pretty much guarantee that dive was harder for me than it was for them. You're a trained diver and you have the ability to plan and execute a dive on your own without a DM or instructor present. Plan your dive, do a careful buddy check and make your first dive in a familiar environment, you'll be fine.
Ber :lilbunny:

 

[Sideband]

I think that was the point. That a brand new OW student can jump directly into AOW, then from AOW into specialy after specialty right up into DM and beyond without ever doing any doing on thier own.

FD

Ah. I guess since I think this approach is wrong that the point was lost on me. Thanks.

Joe

 

[Steve_Dives]

jponline77-

Some dive shops offer the "advanced" courses one piece at a time. So you could select just the specialty you wanted. SSI is one agency that does their advanced this way.

Distilling the comments, I think there are some questions for newbies to consider when considering AOW.
Were the mask and regulator skills bothersome during OW?
Are you fighting buoyancy?
Ask someone your size (with over 100 OW dives) how much weight they use. How close is yours?
Are you comfortable in the water?
Have you increased your max depth 10-20 feet at a time to about the 90-100 foot depth?
Dive with someone with a lot of experience. Compare your air consumption to theirs. Is it close?

Steve

 

[Ber Rabbit]

Their reasoning was that, as a new OW diver, they were still trying to master other skills, and they found that it was very difficult to teach navigation to someone who is permanently distracted keeping control on their bouyancy. In other words, the new divers were so absorbed in performing the basics that they could not devote enough time to really learning what the AOW instructors were teaching. Have you run in to that with any of your students?

Personally I set my AOW class up to deal with this. Yes it is hard to teach navigation to someone who is struggling with buoyancy. Most of my students are either straight out of OW or they have not been diving in years. I do a pool session to allow them to get a feel for diving again and I challenge their buoyancy control in the pool. I set up a vertical line with a piece of tape marking every 2 feet. I expect them to choose a tape mark, get neutral and remain between the mark above their chosen spot and the mark below it; in other words, no more than a 2 foot change in depth in either direction during a 2-3 minute hover. Some of the new OW divers look a bit like yo-yo's at first but with a little focus they get results.

My dives are set up differently than most classes. I usually only have quarries available for diving since the college students can't afford to dive "better" places. Our first 2 dives are simply fun dives to get the feel for being in open water again and put the pool buoyancy work to the test. I don't start the actual AOW dives until my students have gotten their "scuba legs" back and are mentally ready to be challenged. Once their buoyancy is sorted out I start adding tasks and "stuff" for them to do and carry. Example: It's not just a navigation dive, you set up a navigation course using 3 orange juice jugs tied to bricks. We generally dive 4 weekends in a row combining "working" dives with "fun" dives. I've had students do as many as 24 dives in the class and accumulate over 600 minutes of bottom time.

The student's willingness to work and learn is often the determining factor in how well they will do in the class. I've had some really great students and I've seen how quickly an OW student can "step it up" and improve their skills when they wanted to.
Ber :lilbunny:

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Personally I set my AOW class up to deal with this. Yes it is hard to teach navigation to someone who is struggling with buoyancy. Most of my students are either straight out of OW or they have not been diving in years. I do a pool session to allow them to get a feel for diving again and I challenge their buoyancy control in the pool. I set up a vertical line with a piece of tape marking every 2 feet. I expect them to choose a tape mark, get neutral and remain between the mark above their chosen spot and the mark below it; in other words, no more than a 2 foot change in depth in either direction during a 2-3 minute hover. Some of the new OW divers look a bit like yo-yo's at first but with a little focus they get results.

My dives are set up differently than most classes. I usually only have quarries available for diving since the college students can't afford to dive "better" places. Our first 2 dives are simply fun dives to get the feel for being in open water again and put the pool buoyancy work to the test. I don't start the actual AOW dives until my students have gotten their "scuba legs" back and are mentally ready to be challenged. Once their buoyancy is sorted out I start adding tasks and "stuff" for them to do and carry. Example: It's not just a navigation dive, you set up a navigation course using 3 orange juice jugs tied to bricks.

Some neat tricks there ... that's what I love about this class, an instructor has so many different ways to get creative ...

We generally dive 4 weekends in a row combining "working" dives with "fun" dives. I've had students do as many as 24 dives in the class and accumulate over 600 minutes of bottom time.

Now THAT'S impressive. I normally offer six dives ... but will add dives if I think it's warranted. So far the most I've done in an AOW class is nine.

The student's willingness to work and learn is often the determining factor in how well they will do in the class. I've had some really great students and I've seen how quickly an OW student can "step it up" and improve their skills when they wanted to.
Ber :lilbunny:

Yep, we can talk about agencies and instructors, but it's often the case that what a student takes away from a class is proportional to what they're willing to put into it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)