Deep Diving on Air

[VooDooGasMan]

Thats true charlie bad vis is very much a more narc than a clear water narc.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

So you found one post in which you, a deep air advocate on his side, mentioned the 1.6 PPO₂ limit. Did anyone else bring it up?

[c]:shocked2:[/c]

I am pretty sure that I have been consistent in "my view" that what I now consider the "Deep Air / Light Deco" threads should not be in the most visible basic scuba forums. But if we are going to discuss "Deep Air / Short Deco" in the most visible basic scuba forums, I will defend members who are just "discussing" "Deep Air / Short Deco". It's not their fault there is no "Deep Air / Short Deco" sub-forum.

I have openly professed to a possibility of taking quick "air" peeks at stuff ~150 ft (50 m?), that I have so far just cruised over at 110 ft, and I have mentioned that my two deep "air" dives are; 146 ft to stop a gray reef shark distracted photographer from going deeper and 138 ft to photograph gray reef sharks.

When people beat their chests and brag about going all the way down to 150 feet (10 feet more than the real limit of recreational diving) for a few minutes, I have to admit that I do snicker a little.

Let's look at my first post this Fall, in any of the "deep bounce" threads ...

So now I am seriously confused as to why this discussion is in Basic Scuba Discussions because this is not basic scuba diving that is being discussed. I'm of the opinion that lots of basic scuba divers were/are not aware of the current event precipitating this sentence, and I do not see any reason to reach out and make basic scuba divers aware of this very UN-basic scuba incident. Now there are a bunch of high testosterone 20 somethings reading various threads where some of the fairly respected SB members are admitting ".... gone 250-ish, but never 300 on a single 80."

If I had never seen a Warren Miller movie, would I have attempted solo snowboard helicopters off avalanche prone cornices?

Advanced Scuba Discussions is closer to a better place to discuss "Deep Air / Light Deco" (imho) but why couldn't there be an opt-in "Deep Air / Light Deco" sub-forum, sorta like the opt-in Solo Diving sub-forum, with the Solo Diving sub-forum, here in Advanced Scuba Discussions?

With a Kayak Diving sub-forum and a cherry on top!

Since "Pandora's Box Opened", I have research the "Deep Air / Light Deco" topic and I found that if you look hard enough here on ScubaBoard; there are many, many threads containing lots of really good knowledge about deep air diving. I would be more than happy to have the first sticky for the new "Deep Air / Light Deco" sub-forum be the deep air thread which includes these quotes ...

There are pretty complicated dives that get done, on air, from 150 to 190. No tether, lots of real time, complex navigational decisions, occasional short penetrations, almost always line running, lots of photography and complex instrument servicing, deco obligations are calculated before the dive not during, plenty of mid-water work, lots of critical team work, rare scootering, no comms, no surface support, no decompression chamber. Science and risk management, not enjoyment, are the only issues.

We have for over half a century relied on good training and lots of planning and practice.

Bunch of people who've never, or have rarely, done it pontificating the choir about how bad it is and slapping each other on the back at their shared perspicacity.

 

[DaleC]

I suggested an opt in subforum called Alternative Diving Practices awhile ago to cover practices not currently taught by mainstream agencies. It could include concepts like deep air, independant doubles, solo, deco light, yada yada. The opt in would be that you are a big boy/girl and willing to do your own due dilligence. And the best part would be that those who only want to adopt mainstream practices need not apply. It would be a great way to keep the two mindsets seperated and allow for some actual discussions to result. We already have the example of the solo forum which seems to be pretty well self policed as far as content.
- didn't go anywhere.


Back to the discussion though. I would suspect that deep air bounce dives were/are pretty common for those who set anchors or tie into wrecks for charters, spearfishermen and Navy types sent down to retrieve gear or look at damage. Can any Navy divers confirm this?

 

[Aardvark]

Deep Air Diving is never going away so get use to it. The cost for going helium is never going to be in the hands of almost all divers so they will dive past rec limits and enjoy what kind of diving they can afford.

The threads close cause some members just want to get it off topic.

Charlie like I say lets see how many Deep Diver you run into in the next year. I have never met a diver yet that did not want to go deeper.

I have no desire to go deeper. Lots of stuff to see shallower than 130', been to 150' a couple of times. Didn't like it. Actually, I liked the dive, what I didn't like was talking about the dive afterward and realising what I thought happened is not what actually happened.

 

[Simon-]

My tuppence worth.

I have done some deep air dives, between 50m - 56m, a few times.

Was I narced? Probably to some extent, however, it didn't appear to be detrimental (from my or my buddy's perspective).

Was it on a single tank? No, twins with deco bottle. Adequate supplies of both. None of the dives have been bounce dives.

Will I carry on with deeper air dives. No, that's what Trimix is for.


To state that "Deep Air Diving is never going away so get use to it. The cost for going helium is never going to be in the hands of almost all divers so they will dive past rec limits and enjoy what kind of diving they can afford" is not an arguement I can agree with. There are many things that used to be done in a certain way, but aren't any more. Why? There is now a safer way to do those same things.

As with all things in life, the things I do, I want to do safely (or as safe as I can make it). For example, I love motorbikes, particularily sports bikes. I could have bought a crash helmet for £25. I didn't. I saved and bought one for £300. The cheaper one was legal, but the more expensive one had higher test ratings, certifications etc. Buy a £25 pound helmet if you have a £25 head.

The deeper dives can be done on air, agreed. They can be done safer on Tmx.

 

[knowone]

Reputation is a funny thing, seeking acceptance from those you are never likely to meet even funnier. I feel for those whose financial outcomes are closely combined with their manufactured personas, making it highly unlikely that you will ever hear from these much reality, even if they remember what reality is, or ever knew it.

I would never contemplate going someplace without adequate knowledge mindset and gear, just as I have no interest in poking my nose in their horizontal, forums


dive in negative
:goingdown:
and kick like heck


Oh, whilst inflating the brake

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I suggested an opt in subforum called Alternative Diving Practices awhile ago to cover practices not currently taught by mainstream agencies. It could include concepts like deep air, independant doubles, solo, deco light, yada yada. The opt in would be that you are a big boy/girl and willing to do your own due dilligence. And the best part would be that those who only want to adopt mainstream practices need not apply. It would be a great way to keep the two mindsets seperated and allow for some actual discussions to result. We already have the example of the solo forum which seems to be pretty well self policed as far as content.
- didn't go anywhere.

In theory I agree with you ... those who dive this way should have a place to discuss how and why.

On the other hand, creating such a forum could easily be seen as advocating unsafe diving practices ... particularly with the predictability of a handful of people pushing the boundaries to see how far they could take it.

Let's suppose a participant in such a forum ends up killing himself/herself doing this type of diving. The surviving family members find out that the diver participated in these discussions, and that ScubaBoard holds some responsibility for encouraging the behavior.

ScubaBoard has already had to defend itself in court once due to the irresponsible comments of a handful of its members ... I doubt Pete is anxious to set himself up for another go at it.

I don't, personally, care how you or VDGM or Hale or anyone else chooses to dive. We're all adults, and one of the things I find particularly attractive about scuba diving is that it gives us all a certain degree of freedom to make those choices. But we live in a litigious society, and our public interactions must ... by necessity ... remain within certain limits. For a public forum, I think those limits are defined by what is advocated by recognized diving agencies as responsible behavior.

The type of diving that many of the participants in this and other deep air discussions want to talk about doesn't fall within that category ... however you or I or anyone else feels about it personally.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Crush]

I suggested an opt in subforum called Alternative Diving Practices awhile ago to cover practices not currently taught by mainstream agencies. It could include concepts like deep air, independant doubles, solo, deco light, yada yada. The opt in would be that you are a big boy/girl and willing to do your own due dilligence.

In theory I agree with you ... those who dive this way should have a place to discuss how and why.

On the other hand, creating such a forum could easily be seen as advocating unsafe diving practices ... particularly with the predictability of a handful of people pushing the boundaries to see how far they could take it.

Alternative Diving Practices sounds like a good name for a new facebook page...

 

[Hank49]

Let's suppose a participant in such a forum ends up killing himself/herself doing this type of diving. The surviving family members find out that the diver participated in these discussions, and that ScubaBoard holds some responsibility for encouraging the behavior.

ScubaBoard has already had to defend itself in court once due to the irresponsible comments of a handful of its members ... I doubt Pete is anxious to set himself up for another go at it.



... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Could Scubaboard be liable in a case like that? The other case involved libel I believe, involving a dive shop in the Maldives?
But if discussing dangerous diving practices could open a forum to law suit, I would think that Spearboard would have been shut down long ago.
One very successful, as well as helpful, scuba spearo there talks about doing multiple bounces to over 200 feet in a day. His remedy, or prevention method for DCS is a Guiness and an aspirin.
He's not advocating it, just telling what he does. Why can't it be the same here?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Could Scubaboard be liable in a case like that? The other case involved libel I believe, involving a dive shop in the Maldives?
But if discussing dangerous diving practices could open a forum to law suit, I would think that Spearboard would have been shut down long ago.
One very successful, as well as helpful, scuba spearo there talks about doing multiple bounces to over 200 feet in a day. His remedy, or prevention method for DCS is a Guiness and an aspirin.
He's not advocating it, just telling what he does. Why can't it be the same here?

I can think of several reasons.

Spearboard is a different place than ScubaBoard ... with a different audience, mindset and mission. A more aggressive behavior is tolerated ... even encouraged ... over there that's not allowed here. And I would not want to see it allowed here. Spearboard is the correct place for that attitude and discussion ... and for the people who want to interact at that level.

ScubaBoard is far larger, with a wider range of audience than Spearboard. Furthermore, it's more worth suing.

ScubaBoard has in its Terms of Service the following statement ...

ScubaBoard Moderators may, at their discretion, remove any post which advocates unsafe diving practices, as defined by the major certification agencies of the scuba diving world. While ScubaBoard does not take an official position on these matters, ScubaBoard does encourage users to maintain safe diving practices. You and you alone are responsible for your diving safety.

Intentional violaton of its own Terms of Service would make defending themselves against such a suit rather difficult ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)