deep air

[Rainer]

Yes. God help the diver with only 50 dives at 300' on trimix with no deco gas if he should run into a serious issue.

No kidding, but only you seem to think that's happening. [But no worries, you'd just tell him to buddy breathe to the surface, or maybe CESA, right?]

 

[Thalassamania]

Thal has already addressed this. Obviously you have no idea of the complexity of commercial diving.

Be kinda fun to watch them jump out of a bell and burn on a hot tap down in the Gulf, regardless of mix.

Reminds me of when I heard G III crowing about one of the many firsts of the WKPP, and how safely they'd done it. I suggested to him that a hardsuit rigged for prone use could have done it with a lot less fuss and much greater safety in a much shorter time (for one thing, no need to stage tanks along the route). He did not like that and got all huffy, so I reminded him that his outlook on gas was supposedly based on, "damn the expense increase the safety," a couple'a hard suits and a small Phantom would have worked wonders with truly minimal risk. It's just a matter of money ... what's your life worth anyway?

Yes, the risks are greater cave diving than open water diving -- I think. But honestly, I don't think I have to do a dive to 150 feet while fuzzy and stupid in order to feel that I can competently execute a cave dive, especially a cave dive to a shallower depth. I HAVE done a couple of dives to the 150 foot range -- I did them on mix, in extremely favorable conditions, and they went well. I have no desire at all to see how they go when I'm not firing on all cylinders.

The issue is are divers who are having great depths open to them because of mix really ready for the great depths? Unlike DCDM, I'm not a big mix diver, I've done a little of it and that mainly as part of using a CCR, unlike Rainer I'm not a big deep diver, again ... I've done a bit of it but I tend to confine my dives to 190 feet and I usually use air.

No kidding, but only you seem to think that's happening. [But no worries, you'd just tell him to buddy breathe to the surface, or maybe CESA, right?]

BB or CESA to your deco bottles or the surface, as appropriate (at least from 190 or less, on air) is just not a big enough deal to make a fuss about.

 

[gcbryan]

Yes, the risks are greater cave diving than open water diving -- I think. But honestly, I don't think I have to do a dive to 150 feet while fuzzy and stupid in order to feel that I can competently execute a cave dive, especially a cave dive to a shallower depth. I HAVE done a couple of dives to the 150 foot range -- I did them on mix, in extremely favorable conditions, and they went well. I have no desire at all to see how they go when I'm not firing on all cylinders.

That's just it...at 150 fsw you will not be stupid (barnyard or otherwise). If one isn't doing a complicated dive the slight impairment/hesitation involved will not be overwhelming. A problem that is much more complicated that arises in a cave may be a greater threat even if addressed absolutely clear headed.

Just because you go to 150 fsw on air doesn't mean you have to do it in a current where you have to exert yourself. You control the circumstances just as you do when on mix.

Drunk driving analogies miss the point as well if for no other reason because of the baggage that comes with that (victims of drunk driving).

What about the analogy of hiring two competent people to do a certain job and one has a slightly higher IQ than the other. The job still gets done.

All I'm pointing out is that most of the most adamant viewpoints against using air below 100 fsw are those who don't have any experience using air below 100 fsw. Isn't that odd? I have a little experience and others have a great amount of experience.

Isn't it odd not to give any weight to their experience? The typical response (not yours) is to simply make fun of them. That's not logical. That's simply defending a belief.

 

[DCBC]

...Glad you recognize that, but please, keep prattling on. It's amusing

“Teachers open the door, but you must enter by yourself”

 

[DCBC]

Granted, but certainly all else being equal less narced > more narced.

I know it's easy to link narcosis with alcohol and I've been guilty of this myself, but it's not exactly the same. But to continue the analogy, many DUI laws utilize 80 mg of alcohol per 100 ml of blood (0.08) as the limit for impaired driving. I'm sure you (if your a drinker) have had the occasion of having either one beer at lunch, or a one glass of wine with dinner and have driven a car. My point is you can have a drink and can not be "legally impaired."

There are those that can be severely impaired (drunk) by breathing air at 200'. I am not one of them. The constant comments from certain parties to this discussion about sober being better than s**t-faced, is based upon how that individual perceives he or another would be at that depth. If he would be drunk, how would it be humanly possible for anyone else to be safe?

There are many divers whom I know that are much safer to dive to 200' on air, than other divers at the same depth on trimix. Diver safety doesn't necessarily equate only to the gas that's in the cylinder.

I don't know what agency does, that, but I'll take your word that at least one does.

The prerequisites I've quoted are from TDI (TDI/SDI Middle East)

In any case, the point I was trying to make was one of personal responsibility. At this level, most divers recognize that, aside from allowing access to certain gases, cards aren't worth much more than the plastic they're printed on. Someone who is going to go to 180 twice with an instructor and then hop down to 330 is someone who would likely do it on air.

I don't really agree with this statement. The diver in-question could have dove to this depth on air before going to the time and expense of an Advanced Trimix card. I think that there are a lot of drivers on the highways that would drive 150 mph if they were legally able to. They would make an assumption that they could, but many would not consider if they were personally qualified to do so. Once someone is qualified, I suggest that the chance of it happening is improved. This is why diving qualifications have to be reasonable.

 

[Gilldiver]

Isn't it odd not to give any weight to their experience? The typical response (not yours) is to simply make fun of them. That's not logical. That's simply defending a belief.

In a debating club that is known as a Personal Attack and is considered to be poor form at best and the last resort of the unprepared, second rates, and ignorant at worse.

 

[DCBC]

It's easy for people to say that deep air (or cave diving for that matter is unsafe). If however, they learned to do the dive properly in progressive steps, it can be done relatively safely. Because we hear about so many diver deaths in caves, does that mean that all cave divers are foolhardy and irresponsible divers? I think not. Anyone who hasn't taken the time to learn really doesn't know what they are talking about, but that doesn't mean they can't have an opinion; it's just an unqualified one. I have heard quite a few of these lately surrounding deep air. If deep air is so unsafe, why are organizations like TDI, IANTD, DSAT, CMAS and others running them? Those who feel these organizations are reckless please stand up and be counted.

 

[Katamuki]

I took the series of photos to make this pic on air at over 150. I ended up taking three complete sets of radial pans to make this so I wouldnt have to go back twice the same day. Came out fine.

On the other hand.... there was a diver not far from me cleaning up some anchor line who had gathered up the line and tied it off. He had attached a lift bag and was going to shoot the junk to the surface for cleanup. It took several seconds for him to realize he had the bag upside down and that was the reason the air wasnt going INTO the bag but around it...

I am not a deep air fan and do not recommend it.

Two years ago I pulled an unconscious diver off a deep wall at a screeline of just under 140ft at 10pm. I had turned a corner heading into a slight current with my partner/wife just over me as I was shooting WA night photos of basket stars and didnt want her in the way. As we approached the diver we saw his partner going up and away from him. As we approached to within 15ft I saw him looking down while he was fin pivoting. As I approached him over the next 8-10 seconds I came on slowly in case he was looking at an animal I wanted to photo. Once by his side I saw the slack face, half lidded eyes in the mask and loose arms/legs and he was slowly going into the deep. Luckily the reg was in his mouth. It took 10 seconds from the first time I saw him before recognized what was happening enough to take action.

I hooked his arms and clamped his mouth/reg and brought him up through a modified deco schedule I needed and got him to the surface. He came around and my wife gave him a neuro exam and he seemed ok. His partner had joined us on the way up and came along with us all the way through the surf and into my van for the checkup. The two divers had only been seperated by the time it took me to see them and start the ascent. Not long at all, maybe 12 seconds.

As divers we all are on the edge as the sport is one we are on life-support to even do, but why not do it with the best tools we have available? Heliotrox, Heli-air provide an edge to the mental aspect of deep diving that can allow a simple issue to be dealt with simply before it becomes a cascade of failures.

IMO
Jim

 

[DCBC]

Nor do I have ANY doubt that you're completely wrong.

You are entitled to your opinion, however unqualified.

 

[DCBC]

I took the series of photos to make this pic on air at over 150. I ended up taking three complete sets of radial pans to make this so I wouldnt have to go back twice the same day. Came out fine.

Jim, that's a really neat photo!

As divers we all are on the edge as the sport is one we are on life-support to even do, but why not do it with the best tools we have available? Heliotrox, Heli-air provide an edge to the mental aspect of deep diving that can allow a simple issue to be dealt with simply before it becomes a cascade of failures.

It would seem that you didn't feel that this particular dive required helium in the mixture or am I incorrect? I don't think anyone is disputing the use of the "right mixture," but what that mixture is, is dependent upon the training of the individual making the dive, its length, complexity, its availability and some other factors.