Deep air training

[TwoBitTxn]

I am going to take a huge risk at getting :flame: and ask a question.

People have been diving deep air longer than Trimix. Trimix is still expensive. People will continue to dive deep air and survive. I understand the hazards of deep air.

What is wrong with agencies teaching a deep air class? I know I am not aware of what is taught in one as I have not taken one. But I don't agree with the statement that teaching something condones its use. I think you can teach a class like deep air, teach all the hazards involved with it, the increased chances of problems associated with it, take someone on a deep air dive in a controlled situation and let them get really narced and decide if that is something they want to continue doing. I think its a better way to reach people on the hazards of deep air rather than saying its too dangerous don't do it.

Tom

 

[jimholcomb]

...diving is a sport. Some diving is an extreme sport. An Ox hit at depth is fatal. Unless there is an airplane at 250' full of survivors in an air pocket - there can be no real reason to take the risk.

Some will argue that your body developes a tolerance for the narcosis affects at that depth. I don't believe that. I believe you become used to it yourestill just as narked but you don't notice it - WHICH I think is even more dangerous.

There is a safer way to go to 250' - Trimix. And it is not plagued with the dangers. Now true, it's expensive and it's not always available - but that's when you don't do the dive. You never HAVE to do the dive.

I love the sport. But the risks associated with deep air is not worth the one or two minutes you would spend at that depth.

This is my personal opinion and not intended to inflame the masses.

 

[jimholcomb]

...diving is a sport. Some diving is an extreme sport. An Ox hit at depth is fatal. Unless there is an airplane at 250' full of survivors in an air pocket - there can be no real reason to take the risk.

Some will argue that your body developes a tolerance for the narcosis affects at that depth. I don't believe that. I believe you become used to it yourestill just as narked but you don't notice it - WHICH I think is even more dangerous.

There is a safer way to go to 250' - Trimix. And it is not plagued with the dangers. Now true, it's expensive and it's not always available - but that's when you don't do the dive. You never HAVE to do the dive.

I love the sport. But the risks associated with deep air is not worth the one or two minutes you would spend at that depth.

This is my personal opinion and not intended to inflame the masses.

 

[VTWarrenG]

take someone on a deep air dive in a controlled situation and let them get really narced and decide if that is something they want to continue doing. I think its a better way to reach people on the hazards of deep air rather than saying its too dangerous don't do it.

In what way is a narc-dive a "better way" to reach people than simple education?

I don't believe driving schools take kids out drunk a few times to "reach them on the hazards" of driving drunk.

I don't believe flight schools take pilot students up a few times hopped up on crack rock to "reach them on the hazards" of flying while on crack rock.

I don't believe bungee jumping instructors have their students jump off some 30' walls a few times to "reach them on the hazards" of jumping off a bridge with an improperly-configured bungee.

In short, Tom -- education does not occur this way. There is no reason to take anyone down on deep air, even just once. It's stupid and pointless. What does a deep air student expect to learn from such a narc-dive? All he's going to say is "golly gee, everyone else in whole free world is right!" If someone is so thick-skulled that they cannot learn from the mistakes of their predecessors, they probably should be inside cross-stitching, rather than tempting fate on deep air.

- Warren

 

[trymixdiver]

the only excuse for not diving trimix is that its not available. As we all know, for the most part mix is readily available. Why would you waste money on a class for deep air when trimix classes are a affordable. I agree that alot of people do deep air currently and in the past. I cant say why they dont take a mix class, maybe they are set in there ways.
Sounds like these agencies who still teach deep air are just keeping it a current course to squeeze out every dollar from students.

if your goal is to dive mix why even bother with deep air, unless you like supporting your LDS and taking a class you dont really need.


"People will continue to dive deep air and survive"

but they will also die, and for what, a few hundred dollars they saved by not taking the mix class and doing it correctly.

Andy

 

[BIGJC]

250 feet is a mix dive true enough but what about 145-175 feet? This are outside of real nitrox depths and most "old timers" will tell you that you can easily tolerate the narcs at these depths but the DIR method does not condone air dives below 100 feet (or basically at all).... I think air can be used with relative safety at these depths......

 

[VTWarrenG]

BIGJC,

What is "relative safety?"

Most experienced divers will tell you that nitrogen narcosis noticeably affects most divers' ability to perform simple tasks at any depths beyond 100 fsw or so. Most experienced divers will agree that the narcosis at 175 fsw on air is debilitating for many divers.

There's better technology now than when the "old timers" first became set in their ways. Ignore the old timers who refuse to follow advances in the sport. Use the better technology that is now available to you. Keep your END at 100 fsw or shallower, and be a safer diver. There's no good reason not to.

- Warren

 

[BIGJC]

Warren-
I agree with you that the technology is widely available to make these dives in a safer manner.... Some people simply do not have access to mixed gases and can only use air... I think a experienced RECREATIONAL diver could safely complete a dive to 160' on air with no problems... I used the term "relative safety" because deep diving is simply less safe than dives in the "rec limits", no matter whats in your tank. But I do agree if you plan on doing extended or numerous deep dives into these ranges you should invest in Mixed gas training, its the smart thing to do. I just dont think you can simply "rule out" deep air at this point in time.... just regulate its use and educate the industry on a better way....

 

[AquaTec]

I don't see anything wrong with teaching deep air.
You don't have to take the course if you don't want to.

I would suggest that the organizations teaching make sure that they relay to the instructors the dangers involved. and make it a standard that the instructors let the students know this before they lay out the cash for the course.

It should also be suggested that they skip the deep air and go right to a Trimix course.

the real question is what constitutes deep. 100 - 130 - 165 - 180 -?
that is the real topic of the debate

Cave diving is way more dangerous than deep air and they teach that all day long. way more people die in cave than from being narced, or toxed

 

[jimholcomb]

"Cave diving is way more dangerous than deep air and they teach that all day long. way more people die in cave than from being narced, or toxed"

That is incorrect. There have been fewer than 50 TRAINED cave divers die in caves since records were kept. This is over a 30 to 40 year period.

Of those 50 - exceeding the recommended max depth is the greatest single contributing factor (If I recall correctly, 10 or 11 of the 50).

You are correct in that cave diving is dangerous and filled with risks BUT cave divers are trained to mitigate each risk one at a time. For example, continuos guildline, rule of thirds, 3 lights, do not exceed 130' in depth, ect....

There is no way to mitigate the risks of deep air (o2 hit or narcosis) without CHANGING the mix. A person can not be trained to handle an O2 hit. A person cannot be trained to handle debilitating narcosis.

I would recommend reading first hand accounts of notables in the dive industry who have survived a deep air encounter never to try it again.