Deep Air - Here we go again....

[JeffG]

As long as they still got what it takes to go deep.

ewwwww

 

[Sloth]

Dr Edmonds points some of them out related to technical diving here http://rubicon-foundation.org/dspace/bitstream/123456789/6084/1/SPUMS_V27N3_15.pdf

You can't really define HPNS so rigidly, it's a bit like nitrogen narcosis in-that it isn't predictable who will get it and when. But you're right that Trimix doesn't present the same dangers that Heliox does, because of the added Nitrogen in the mixture. I've seen divers experiencing HPNS symptoms at 300' with Heliox that subsided shortly after the descent was halted. I suppose it would matter as to the physical condition of the diver; which brings to mind that not all technical divers undergo hyperbaric medicals in a similar way as a Navy or commercial divers is required to.

the document you link categorizes tech diving with helium as high risk because; ".....divers are diving deeper with helium and Trimix than with compressed air and therefore are exposed to all the associated problems of depth (other than nitrogen narcosis and breathing resistance). Barotrauma and DCS risks are aggravated. The environmental difficulties associated with depth include poor visibility, buoyancy problems, excess gas consumption, stress factors and the increase risks and difficulties with first aid, rescue and resuscitation. "

I really have a problem with this logic. You agree with this studies conclusions that helium is dangerous because it encourages divers to dive deep which exposes them to the higher risks of deep diving but at the same time you say it's ok to dive air to those deep depths so long as you train up to it which has been demonstrated to be dependent on an individuals susceptibility to nitrogen narcosis?

I still havent seen a reason from you why air is better then helium other then costs and availability.

The increase chance of heliox leading to HPNS issues is moot as heliox isnt used in (amateur) technical diving at greater depths.

 

[Slamfire]

I still havent seen a reason from you why air is better then helium other then costs and availability.

Unless I missed something while reading the last 12 pgs, no one is claiming that air is better than He. In fact I understood he acknowledges the benefits of using He over air when it comes to reducing narcosis.

 

[muddiver]

Don't argue the point, or they will accuse you of not being able to read and comprehend the postings.

 

[Blackwood]

Don't argue the point, or they will accuse you of not being able to read and comprehend the postings.

His comprehension is fine.

 

[Sloth]

Unless I missed something while reading the last 12 pgs, no one is claiming that air is better than He. In fact I understood he acknowledges the benefits of using He over air when it comes to reducing narcosis.

.....everyone is not certified to use it and it brings a danger that is beyond simple narcosis. It is a two-edged sword.

I wanted clarification in how he felt helium brought it's own risks when the benefits clearly outweigh the risks. I shouldn't have made the statement that his intent was to state air was better then helium.

Bottom line he makes these posts to do nothing but stir up a hornets nest. People like me will come in here and call him out on it because I feel whole hearty that by belittling the risks of deep air diving he is misleading people into potentially dangerous territory. It's worse in my mind knowing that he is an instructor and he preaches this to students.

I personally cant stand it when people belittle risks in order to justify to themselves that something they are doing is safe or ok. It's worse when that someone is an instructor that has a moral obligation to clearly define risks to students.

 

[muddiver]

as you get deeper it gets worse. Case closed.


My position is that Helium should be the gas that divers are trained on. Remove Narcosis from the equation.

If the diver chooses to forgo that option (and dive air) at least he is doing so from a position of knowledge. (He/she knows about helium and its benefits)

Unlike how a lot of training is done now. Helium is not taught and the divers is not making that decision (to dive deep air) based on a position of knowledge.

Yep, but at some point your deep and it doesn't matter. No one is immune.

This is the height of stupidity.


Thats ego talking. It just hasn't killed you yet.

Diving deep air is (and always will be) a compromise.

This is not the fault of helium, but of training agencies.

So. Dumb.

This entire thing is just a bunch of stupidity. We ALL know better now. Take a look at your own post http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/near-misses-lessons-learned/315141-deep-solo-wreck-dive.html Wow...

Dumb. This is supposed to be a fun activity, but you and people like you put others at risk with this machoism "I can handle it" BS. Then when someone dies on deep air, you blame it on something else. Its ALWAYS something else... when the only common theme is deep air. Ask a drunk if he's ok to drive home and see what he says. Of COURSE he's fine! He knows his limits. Right.

This type stupidity has to be stopped. I'm sick of reading about deaths and injuries because of this nonsense.

His comprehension is fine.

Well I have not quoted myself, but I count three statements that diving something other than Trimix is stupid.

Now, I am not in agreement that diving deep on air is a good idea if there are alternatives like Nitrox (still not much better), Heliox or Trimix.

 

[Blackwood]

Well I have not quoted myself, but I count three statements that diving something other than Trimix is stupid.

Now, I am not in agreement that diving deep on air is a good idea if there are alternatives like Nitrox (still not much better), Heliox or Trimix.

Your statement 'if you don't dive trimix you're stupid' makes it seem as if 'DIR/Tech Divers' mandate helium must always be used (which is what I meant by picking certain parts, removing the qualifying statements, and applying them indiscriminately). Those posts you quoted are clearly in the context of deep dives.

Perhaps that's not what you meant to imply, but the sardonic wording ("black suited") sets the tone. If I'm wrong, I'll apologize.

 

[Sloth]

Well I have not quoted myself, but I count three statements that diving something other than Trimix is stupid.

Now, I am not in agreement that diving deep on air is a good idea if there are alternatives like Nitrox (still not much better), Heliox or Trimix.

This a thread in the technical diving subforum. Most agencies now a days agree that diving air beyond recreational limits has to great of a risk and therefore recommend trimix.

I think doing something recognized as dangerous when there is a safer option is by definition stupid.

 

[muddiver]

Your statement "if you don't dive trimix you're stupid" makes it seem as if "DIR/Tech Diver"s say helium must always be used (which is what I meant by picking certain parts, removing the qualifying statements, and applying them indiscriminately). Those posts you quoted are clearly in the context of deep dives.

Perhaps that's not what you meant to imply, but the sardonic wording ("black suited") sets the tone. If I'm wrong, I'll apologize.

If I misrepresented my point, than I apologize.

I have been enjoying reding the points of view and the information on the subject.