Deep Air Diving - thoughts

[Bismark]

From Shadow Divers:


Unfortunately, there are some places in the world where you cannot readily get helium --at the Blue Lagoon Dive Shop in Chuuk for example, they request at least a four-month lead time to guarantee a reserved shipment for your own exclusive use, for a premium cost of nearly $4.50/cf . . .:11:!

If all you have is Air for bottom mix 150'-180', and at least Eanx50 for deco along with the requisite training --enjoy yourself outside the wreck, take your time, compose & get some good wide angle photo shots. . .

I guess it all comes down to your risk tolerance. We had HE made available to us in Chuuk (same place) and we used it for the deeper dives and had some great times. For me, since this is all just recreational, my risk tolerance is lower than say if I was still in the military and the fate of the free world was hanging in the balance. Cost is not something I allow into my risk tolerance equation. It is a trump card. If I can't afford the cost, I won't do the dive. Plain and simple. This is all just recreational diving after all. The argument others make regarding choosing to dive deep air because HE is just too expensive is pretty week as far as I am concerned. Others may disagree.

 

[Bismark]

I disagree. The physiological effect is inescapable, but you can indeed reduce its effect on you by experience and conditioning. I would say that you are indeed building up tolerance.

I have rarely felt narced on any dive in recent years, and I have had my performance on deep air dives assessed by others (I'm not just relying on how I feel). But something people need to realise is that the practical effects of narcosis can be provoked and exacerbated by a relatively small but unexpected problem. You know, everything's going swimmingly at 180' on air and you feel great, then suddenly you feel breathing resistance. That can instantaneously convert your feeling of wellbeing into a chill down your spine, and that's accompanied by tunnel vision, developing panic and all the other classic symptoms. A VERY good reason for having deliberately stressful training where you have a serious life-threatening problem suddenly thrown at you, but when you have a mentor watching over you with the mental and physical ability to bail you out. The catalytic event for me was a LP hose bursting on an air dive at 190'. Another was a schrader valve on my CCR failing and injecting uncontrolled oxygen at around 300' on a mix dive. I feel that much scuba training these days is far too easy, and the first time anyone experiences a serious problem is for real when there's no-one around equipped to help.

A comment on mix. Helium can be frighteningly expensive even when it's available. Down here the buy-in cost for helium alone for a twinset dive to say 300' can easily exceed US$250. That's for a single dive! A powerful incentive to do those dives on a CCR.

But this is the gist of the whole problem, diving Deep Air may appear fine but your examples show that your ability to react in a timely and correct fashion to an emergency is questionable. This is exactly my reason to chose not to Dive Deep Air. I can drive while intoxicated pretty well, until an emergency like a child running out in front of the vehicle as he chases his ball occurs. Then my reactions are impaired and society has decided that since I knew better, I will be going to jail. For the lawyers out there, what I don't understand is that if we know the physiological effects of narcosis, yet some agencies still support Deep Air diving, is not the instructor or agency liable if that student then dies because he was impaired in his reactions to an emergency? If we can demonstrate that you are impaired diving on Deep Air, how can we not hold those responsible for advocating of allowing this to happen? I don't know about the laws in USA but in Canada, if I host a party and allow you to drive home intoxicated, and there is an accident, there is some legal liability for me. What am I missing in this argument? The preponderance of scientific literature demonstrates that this impairment is a physical fact and all questions of "tolerance" or "narcosis managment" aside, it is a physical fact that you are impaired. In a nation where lawsuits are as commonplace as traffic tickets, why has this not happened yet?

 

[Kevrumbo]

There probably have been many lawsuits already --the only one I've heard of is involving the death of Andrea Doria Diver Christopher Murley:

Take a deep breath before signing our scuba contracts."
Each year 80 or so recreational divers in North America die while in the water. Christopher Murley became such a victim in 1999; he drowned while on his third attempt to see the sunken ship Andrea Doria, located near Long Island. On behalf of Murley's family, attorney Richard Lefkowitz has filed suit against his dive instructor, Joe Jackson, and other related parties in federal court in Central Islip, N.Y. The suit charges negligence and wrongful death; Lefkowitz contends Murley was too inexperienced to take on the Andrea Doria. Bill Turbeville, attorney for all but one defendant, says that Murley "signed a waiver that releases all parties from any claim of negligence." But Lefkowitz maintains that "instructors use releases to insulate themselves from liability. They need to take responsibility when clients do not meet minimum safety standards."

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/37374-andrea-doria-lawsuit-dismissed.html

 

[espenskogen]

I've posted elsewhere about my experiences diving air to max depths of 200 feet. Since I can only relate my own experiences, which are probably unique to my personal physiology, mind and dive conditions; I would never make general "recommendations" for any diver. However, I found that narcosis, while present, was not debilitating at any of the depths for me. Had it been, I would not have continued to dive those depths. Focusing on my task (videography) helped, but that task also requires being aware of my environment in a search for subjects.

With that said, I would never consider doing such dives if they involved penetration or a higher probability of entanglement.

I totally agree. I've dived down to 213 ft on air, and although I was narced, it wasn't debilitating. However, I was diving in clear subtropical water in a wetsuit and familiar kit. I suspect it would have been a different story in cold dark water and with a drysuit.

Me thinks trimix is more appropriate for that kind of diving.

 

[Daylonious]

I'm not saying I'm not going to eventually go trimix, just saying that I'd like to get some deep air dives in and some experience with that before making the jump.

THanks for all the posts and topics - it's all good information - can't believe it's up to almost 60 posts now...

D>

 

[Bismark]

I'm not saying I'm not going to eventually go trimix, just saying that I'd like to get some deep air dives in and some experience with that before making the jump.

THanks for all the posts and topics - it's all good information - can't believe it's up to almost 60 posts now...

D>

So after everything you have read above, you still want to drive drunk before driving sober just so you can get some experience and appreciation for driving sober???

Sigh.............

 

[wedivebc]

So after everything you have read above, you still want to drive drunk before driving sober just so you can get some experience and appreciation for driving sober???

Sigh.............

So what's it to you? The points have been made, the decision will be made one way or the other. What makes you qualified to stand in judgement of someone elses choices?
I say if he makes the choice to dive deep air, he does it with full knowledge of the risks.
This reminds me of the group of DIR guys at Madrona who told my son he was going to die because he was diving a rebreather. Wish I had been there.

 

[Bismark]

So what's it to you? The points have been made, the decision will be made one way or the other. What makes you qualified to stand in judgement of someone elses choices?
I say if he makes the choice to dive deep air, he does it with full knowledge of the risks.
This reminds me of the group of DIR guys at Madrona who told my son he was going to die because he was diving a rebreather. Wish I had been there.

Back off there bubba. Looks like you are passing judgment as well. We have different viewpoints about Deep air diving and that's that. We are both entitled to our opinion but when my tax dollars are spent on recompression chambers etc. in a public health care system, then I have one voice in the matter.

Sounds like you were incensed by what happened in Madrona and frankly, I would have been also if I had been in your shoes. Personally, I don't know enough about rebreathers to speak from any kind of position of knowledge. I know most of the DIR crew on the Island and I am pretty sure none of them would have said anything that stupid. I don't condone comments like that because they create exactly the kind of image many of us are working hard to dispell. Maybe it was some TDI guys from Nanaimo.

 

[wedivebc]

Sounds like you were incensed by what happened in Madrona

No just tired of judgemental people who try to dictate how people should live their lives.
BTW the OP is from Dallas so it hardly affects your pocketbook either.

 

[peterbj7]

I have no idea what the "DIR guys" at Madrona said - frankly I've never even heard of the place. But I have had the most extraordinary things said to me by DIR fanatics and I can well believe the post above. Rather as with some religous zealots, I don't think I've ever had a sensible conversation with someone who declared themself as "DIR". Note my wording - I'm referring to people who think the first thing I should understand about them (in a diving context) is that they adhere to DIR, not every DIR diver.

There is a lot of nonsense being spoken here about "deep air diving". Without getting into an argument over semantics it is quite clear that many divers can tolerate the nitrogen effects of diving down to the oxygen limit on air without obvious impairment. Those people who can't should not try to pass judgement on them. I can tolerate nitrogen in air quite happily down to 60 mtr here in the warm relatively clear waters of Belize. I don't think I'd do so well in cold British waters, but I do know people who routinely dive similarly deep there on air.

And dismissing the cost of helium as a "necessary evil" that you just have to pay is also absurd. If I know I can make a dive comfortably and safely on air, why should I shell out over US$250 to make the same dive on mix? If I did that it would severely curtail my diving, for no good reason.